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Jeridian

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I'm hoping to play the majority of my campaign games on Mondays, who's with me....

How busy is the store on Mondays? Is it packed to the rafters with LOTR players as was implied by Epic being shuffled off to Thursday? Can we squeeze in a few Warhammer players?

As a warm-up anyone around Monday 27th July (i.e. next week) for a 2000pts Warhammer game? If you can get in early we could have a quick Mordheim game beforehand? I can do 4pm onwards.

Grotsmeg

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Wouldnt mind testing out my skaven army, as i aint ever used it. (no army list yet either!)

Jeridian

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Have only faced Skaven once (at BotCh this year), so would be interested in facing them again- I hear they Fear easily.

Grotsmeg

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Im up for that then, although as per normal i will get a lot of rules wrong...

Jeridian

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Alright then, sort of short notice (though I did give warning by this thread).
Rich, you around for a 2000pts Warhammer game Monday at 6pm? If not, anyone else?

Grotsmeg

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Im in mate, army in the case (mostly unpainted and undercoated and one or two proxies)
but im ready for total rat stylee gaming.

Nethrag

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Is anyone else in tonight for some fantasy action?

Grotsmeg

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I want to play you sometime soon i hope, but i suspect you will kick my little chubby rats.

Nethrag

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Well I reckon I'll be in anyway on the off chance and I need to speak to tommie so I'll see you there

Jeridian

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Ouch, I think I'll stick to Epic, thanks for the game anyway.

Grotsmeg

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I feel so dirty, I cant believe how quickly i turned that game around. 2 things for your army, dispell scrolls and a ward save on your general.
I think with them that would have been a completely different game.

Dont be put off by fantasy. my army is still very beatable. I still think that vampire armies need to raise small units to flank and rear charge so that even if they lose the fight they still win combat and tie down units. Although my slaves rallying twice was quite funny.

Nethrag

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Should've come in and watched it seems?! What happened?

Grotsmeg

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I managed to cast plague twice, the first time i cast it, it raped 4 units before i cancelled it. my 2 ratling guns also chalked up some nice shots.
Note to Lee, Ratling guns autohit!

After getting plague off a second time and my 2 warlock engineers going on a warpfire frenzy the ratling guns finished of the general and it was murder she wrote.
so end of my turn 4 Si had a very small army left and having to take crumble tests, and i think only one necromancer/vampire left to hold the army up.
oh and turn 3 my bell rolled a 13 which meant he had a turn of crumble tests which killed a unit of puppies and slapped his stomp down my right flank.

I basically had lost half my units of slaves who rallied twice, and over half my plague rats because they got hit by the second plague.
Si rolled 2 double 1 mis dispells on plague as he had no scrolls.
For a new army its feeling very dirty at the moment, one thing i have noticed is my jezzails aint really causing the problems other poeple seem to get them to do.
And this time my warp cannon survived.

Jeridian

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Hmm, well my usual destructive attitude is to whine, bitch and moan week-in week-out whilst desperately trying to enjoy a game system I don't enjoy.
After cutting 40k (after a long whinge period), rather than whine, bitch and moan week-in week-out whilst desperately trying to enjoy it I found I had a lot more time and money to do more enjoyable things- and the utterly shite 40k rules didn't stress me out anymore.

But I will bitch and moan one last time just to clarify.
It was nothing Rich did, he's ever the gentleman opponent. He played his army exactly as it was intended to be played, and he does well doing so.

The problem is I keep trying to play Warhammer Ancients in Fantasy, I keep making the silly mistake of thinking delicate movement tactics matter- flanking, move and counter-move, bait and counter-bait, flee.
It doesn't. What matters is the big 'Fuck You' spell, or Death Star unit, or Special Rule.
Basically, turns 1-2 we're both maneouvering our armies carefully, the battlelines are being drawn with both I and Richard setting up regiments so that if you charge one another will hit you in the flank. I can say with honesty I was on the slightly losing edge already (so this isn't a 'I got owned' whine)- my flank of Dire Wolves and Black Knights had just been fucked by a Doom Bell Special Rule.

But the game at that point looked like it would be a close fight of combats and manouver. I was looking forward to it.

Then Rich, quite reasonably casts his 'Fuck You' spell- since he has a Level 4 guy and it's a powerful spell, who can blame him?
It basically rips through my entire army, fatally crippling any chance I have of fighting in the 'combats and manouver' game we were just about to play.

This is my fault however, Fantasy isn't 'combats and maneouver', that's Ancients. Fantasy is crazy powerful shit roaming the battlefield (Dragons, Fuck You spells, Deathstar units), and random, because random is fun...
I have a flaw for picking the little guys, I don't want a big fricking dragon, I want an army (it's why in Epic I have no interest in giant robots). But again, Fantasy isn't about armies, Ancients is. In Fantasy the huge blocks of infantry that won Ancient wars are frankly the shitest, slowest part of the force.
My lack of compulsory Dispel Scrolls was another schoolboy error- when optional upgrades are compulsory, there's something wrong.

Another flaw, my own again, is my lack of Warhammer gaming knowledge. It's a bit like War Machine (I've been informed..) in that if you don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the armies, their units, special rules and abilities, it's doesn't matter how you play, your gonna be bumfunned by that unknown trick.
I just don't have the time or money to buy all the books, and/or play every day. I don't really want to 'collect em all'.

These points mean pretty much all my Warhammer games play the same way- we both maneover ready for a 'chess-like' move and counter-move of the battleline on turns 1-3. Turn 4 my opponent whips out his 'fuck you' spell, or uber-unit, or ambush unit, or magic weapon, or dragon, or unit special rule and shatters any positioning game we had planned- fatally crippling my army and ending the game turn 3-4....except I get to sit there for turn 4-6 wishing I was playing Epic, were the 'fuck you' spells can always be countered, and the game can be won at the last moment by a clever move.

So to reiterate, it isn't Rich's fault (if anything I'm to blame for providing a pathetic opponent and a walkover game), as I've been feeling this way about Warhammer for a while. I'll admit I attended BotCh for the social side, entering a tournament was the entry ticket. All my BotCh games kind of did the same thing as above, the one's I won only with me on the other side- and it ain't much fun doing the bumfunning I found either- an opponent who know's he has no chance of winning generally isn't interested in the last few turns, who can blame them.

I know your expecting an Epic advertisement here, so yeah, I guess I've been spoilt by a game that rewards armies, that's near impossible to break and can be won at the last minute if your opponent let's his guard down, no matter how decimated your own force.

Nethrag

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Interesting, while I'd like to disagree with everything you've said I can't (some but not all ).
Fantasy has recently had an upsurge of these type of units that you speak of, the "this happens and there's nothing you can do about it" things. Now, whereas I don't particualrly consider the plague spell to generally be in this category (yes scrolls are basically compulsory - or atleast a ton of dispel dice with handy reroll. Just like taking anti-cav stuff/anti big monster stuff, or I assume anti tank stuff in 40k is compulsory for a winning list), the overall point you make about games becoming dominated by a few things is valid and is something I'm not liking the shift towards in fantasy.

This however

The problem is I keep trying to play Warhammer Ancients in Fantasy, I keep making the silly mistake of thinking delicate movement tactics matter- flanking, move and counter-move, bait and counter-bait, flee.
It doesn't.

I'm going to disagree with. If this doesn't matter then I'd like to know how the hell I consistently win games with beastmen when other people armies are better across the board (in every aspect apart from this delicate movement of units) than mine? Getting the right units in the right places is what warhammer is about for me and is why I keep playing after all these years. This however leads me on to your other valid point. If I don't know what my enemy can do then I don't know which units of mine need to be in the right places?

Taking your own army as an example, if I had no idea what cairn wraiths were, it would come as a bit of a nasty surprise to charge them with my unit and then find out - "oh them? they're ethreal, you can't hurt them, here's a bunch of S5 attacks to the face."
That, I imagine, wouldn't be a particularly fun game. However there are "only" what 14 ish armies in warhammer? I'm certainly not suggesting you need to buy every book, but you'll quite quickly learn what armies can or can't do through playing the game. Asking what opponents units rules are (especially what the rules are for spells they've rolled etc) makes this go a lot quicker too. Granted there will be a learning curve which you may not want to spend the time/effort to get over as you play against armies for the first time, there's not much that you can do about that I'm afraid.

Jeridian

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Fantasy has recently had an upsurge of these type of units that you speak of, the "this happens and there's nothing you can do about it" things. Now, whereas I don't particualrly consider the plague spell to generally be in this category (yes scrolls are basically compulsory - or atleast a ton of dispel dice with handy reroll. Just like taking anti-cav stuff/anti big monster stuff, or I assume anti tank stuff in 40k is compulsory for a winning list), the overall point you make about games becoming dominated by a few things is valid and is something I'm not liking the shift towards in fantasy.

Aye, it was my fault for not bringing the standard netlist stuff, I guess I'd become complacent after not facing much magic at BotCh and figured I could rely on Dispel dice alone. (6-7 of them).
It is still one of those 'Win big or keep playing' things that puts me off 40k, and is putting me of Warhammer. i.e. "If I get this big spell off, you lose, if I fail, we can keep playing the game."

I'm not sure Dispel Scrolls could absolutely stop it either. Irresistables spring to mind, plus Rich was likely to try it on 4-5 dice every turn. Some point I run out of Dispel Scrolls, at some point it gets through- and then I lose, regardless of placement.

I'm going to disagree with. If this doesn't matter then I'd like to know how the hell I consistently win games with beastmen when other people armies are better across the board (in every aspect apart from this delicate movement of units) than mine? Getting the right units in the right places is what warhammer is about for me and is why I keep playing after all these years.

Some form of Devil pact is the only conclusion we've found,

I'd like to agree in that the Movement phase being vitally important was what appealed to me about Warhammer, and what I hoped would keep me interested. Basically I'm a very unlucky person, so games and abilities that rely on 'Roll all your 4+ cover saves' and 'Roll really high to win' I fall down on. Games that rely on movement I enjoy far more, as no fekkin dice god can screw me out of my unit positioning and moving.

I have had a few games where this 'manoeuver warfare' did occur and it's my greatest wargaming enjoyment to have this level of move and counter-move, plotting and chess-like planning. But they are far, far outweighed by the Deathstar or the Uber Spell, or just plain half my army running away after some poor dice rolls. I'll readily acknowledge I lost most of my 'manoever warfare' Warhammer games as well, but they were far more interesting and involving.

This however leads me on to your other valid point. If I don't know what my enemy can do then I don't know which units of mine need to be in the right places?

Taking your own army as an example, if I had no idea what cairn wraiths were, it would come as a bit of a nasty surprise to charge them with my unit and then find out - "oh them? they're ethreal, you can't hurt them, here's a bunch of S5 attacks to the face."

I guess every game system requires a 'hazing' of the nooby as they get slapped by the unknown, some game systems are really convoluted and some aren't however. The more convoluted, the longer this hazing takes as you must go through dozens of armies and dozens of special rules/units in said armies. Warhammer and 40k are some of the most convoluted, legacy systems I've ever seen.

To Richard's credit, he explained every unit and every special rule for Skaven before the game started. The difference between knowledge and experience is important though. I had a brief summary of Skaven knowledge 5 min before the game, but it means nothing until you've seen it in action and experienced a mauling from it.
Again, nothing Rich could do differently, I'm just not sure I'm prepared to spend so much time travelling into Manchester, slogging an army, to lose a dozen or so games purely through 'nooby hazing'. The other often unsung factor is the dozen or so opponent games where they don't really get an interesting fight from me, just a walkover and a sulk. Do I really want to make my opponents feel like shit for winning so easily all the time?

That, I imagine, wouldn't be a particularly fun game. However there are "only" what 14 ish armies in warhammer? I'm certainly not suggesting you need to buy every book, but you'll quite quickly learn what armies can or can't do through playing the game. Asking what opponents units rules are (especially what the rules are for spells they've rolled etc) makes this go a lot quicker too.

It generally takes more than 1 game against a race to truly set in what they can and can't do, plus also several different 'builds' per army. You've got to be looking at 28-42 games (i.e. 2-3 against each race) before you can even start playing 'properly'.
I'm lucky to get 14 Warhammer games a year, so yes, that is a contributing factor to my fading interest.

Granted there will be a learning curve which you may not want to spend the time/effort to get over as you play against armies for the first time, there's not much that you can do about that I'm afraid.

Aye, that is the legitimate reason, it can't be avoided, and I'm not sure I want to waste time and effort (and importantly my opponent's time and effort) bothering.
This can't mask the illegitimate reason that Warhammer is about Deathstars and Uberspells, and no amount of movement or placing is gonna stop them screwing you if your opponent rolls good dice- it is subject to all the Codex Creep and marketing gimmicks 40k suffers (as mainstream games), so I've been very spoilt by Specialist Games and other suppliers.

Davespaceman

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Just don't keep rolling double 1s to dispell the plague. It was quite brutal on you.
Should have flanked the bell unit with your zombies.
But there's way to deal with the deathstar units and big spells. Which there's none of in my army and I still win more than lose.

blessed knight

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Grotsmeg wrote:
Note to Lee, Ratling guns autohit!

you hit with a vast majority of shots anyway
(when they weren't cowering)

sounds like your Slaves are turning into quite a unit.

did you take the same list vs Si?

mike

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there are some uber units and spells in warhammer yes. things that can without doubt win you the game on their own. sometimes. like wise agaisnt this a well organised and thort out movement phase or a well prepared magic defence can completly neatralise all the points spent on said units. best example of this is i know jonny played karl franz on a dragon with his ogres. and through clever play it never saw combat once.

dispel scrolls arnt compulsary. they certainly make things a hell of alot easier and if you dont take them you have to accept your going to take some punishment. but take ian for example, his gt TK army had 4 dispel dice an no scrolls. yet that he's finished in the top 20 at the final twice. mainly cause he knows how to and does deal with enemy wizards quickly when needs be.

i played vamps with some success recently. i had 4 block infantry blocks an two small units of bats. no real uber death unit. the grave guard where hard but i could have made them alot harder but the army worked and worked well. all my blocks are set up so so they could deal with a dragon and i faced an beat most uber death units and could deal with most fuck you magic phases.

so in all. yes you make lots of good true points about the game. but if you set up your army right and play with it well then you can with the type of army you want agaisnt anything else in the game. and VC are a good army to do it with.

as an aside. will goodwin won toysoldier and another tournament recently. his empire army is something close to lord on horse, hero on peg, 2 wizards, 2 infantry blocks with detachments crossbow block hand gun block, stank, 2 cannons unit of knights unit of outriders. and he beat a lot of filthier armies used by good players. by playing well with it. an i dont think its that far apart from the type of empire army you used to run is it si?

Grotsmeg

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blessed knight wrote:
Grotsmeg wrote:
Note to Lee, Ratling guns autohit!
you hit with a vast majority of shots anyway
(when they weren't cowering)

sounds like your Slaves are turning into quite a unit.

did you take the same list vs Si?

nay i modified it to try out the plague priests and rat ogres as i wanted some units that wouldnt be spanked by fear.

Jeridian

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I appreciate the aspirational anecdotes of the rare few that are exceptionally skilful and experienced, and lucky, but for every miracle gamer who won all their games with just a single Goblin blindfolded, there are a hundred unsung losers who got owned by Daemons day in day out.

dispel scrolls arnt compulsary. they certainly make things a hell of alot easier and if you dont take them you have to accept your going to take some punishment.

When that punishment entails having my army destroyed, it kind of sounds compulsory.

i played vamps with some success recently. i had 4 block infantry blocks an two small units of bats. no real uber death unit. the grave guard where hard but i could have made them alot harder but the army worked and worked well. all my blocks are set up so so they could deal with a dragon and i faced an beat most uber death units and could deal with most fuck you magic phases.

I don't seem to have this experience, I'm just not enjoying my 'half-games' then the massive fuck-you-a-thon I have to sit through for the remaining half. It seems a waste of time, and it just isn't fair on my opponents because they too get a 'half-game' then a remaining half of feeling awkward at throwing handfuls of dice at a disinterested opponent.

but if you set up your army right and play with it well then you can with the type of army you want agaisnt anything else in the game

Noble, this is why there's an even spread of armies across tournament placings, no big three, no dud lists...oh wait.
I can't blame my list, of course, I'm using one of the big three- apparently my games should be walkovers. So yeah, it boils down to experience and lack of uber units.

as an aside. will goodwin won toysoldier and another tournament recently. his empire army is something close to lord on horse, hero on peg, 2 wizards, 2 infantry blocks with detachments crossbow block hand gun block, stank, 2 cannons unit of knights unit of outriders. and he beat a lot of filthier armies used by good players. by playing well with it. an i dont think its that far apart from the type of empire army you used to run is it si?

You were making a very convincing argument up until this point.

Yes, it's similar to my Empire army, except for 2 'minor' (by that I mean huge) exceptions:

-STank- When have I ever used a STank. These are the Empire's 'Death Star' or uber unit, which kind of validates my point- I need a big scary uber model, not an army of rank and file with cavalry and cannon. The difference between a Stank Empire and non-Stank Empire huge. A Stank empire actually has something scary to push at the enemy.

-Magic- He has double the amount of Magic scroll caddy I field. Scrolls ahoy.

I'm sure the Pegasus Knight had something like Casket to deliver a 'fuck you' of his own.

I'm not doubting his ability, I think the list given is exactly how an Empire army is supposed to be built at present. But I wanted to play an army of rank and file (where they do more than look pretty and take up space), with a few cavalry support and some cannon- I really wanted to play Ancients apparently.
I just don't have an interest in bringing my own uber unit and playing compare geek wang sizes in the form of a STank.

Grotsmeg

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Si i do think there was a certain amount of bad luck on your part in our game, but the thing about fantasy is the magic side, it's part of what its all about. fantasy creatures and magic. I like you used to almost cut my nose of to spite my face because i didnt agree with cannons in fantasy. (the why and wherefores are well documented and so no need to go over)
But i did realise once i started playing that in the main it is a fun game. I think bar deamons this edition is the best so far.
also (bar daemons) for every strength an army has there is its Achilles heel.

I think you in some way rather than fighting against the dark side just embrace the fact thats how it is and just go with the flow a bit.
im not saying go buy a steam tank, cause i think they are just wrong, (that said i may get two just to prove the point)

I was trying to make my skaven a fun list that i could learn their good and bad points, looks like i accidently joined the ranks of the ghey rats.
How about a rematch and you use my army and i use your vamps (with a few tweaks!)

Lets see if it really is all about the army and not the player.

Ironbark

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Hmm, playing with a SAD list huh Rich? And theres alot more of it just around the corner....... eta october/november

Jeridian

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Si i do think there was a certain amount of bad luck on your part in our game

I don't think there was, I can't use that excuse- I'm not gonna deny you played a good game, you knew what you were doing and used the assets available to you to win it.
For example, the 2-3 turns before the Plague catastrophe you'd attempted to cast it 2-3 times suffering 2 Miscasts on your General which could have been deadly for you. You took the big risks, and eventually got the big reward.

but the thing about fantasy is the magic side, it's part of what its all about. fantasy creatures and magic

Aye, it is. But I naively figured 'normal' armies stood a chance too. I presumed Magic was just a bonus to the armies, not the all-dominating thing it is. I assumed normal rank-n-file would have answers to Dragons, STanks, etc rather than just being steamrollered.

But i did realise once i started playing that in the main it is a fun game.

I've been playing since the start of this edition, there are a lot of things I like about the system- Psychology (except most things ignore it, and the things that don't are screwed), To Hit modifiers, Cover To Hit modifiers, facings, Marching, Armour save modifiers, multiple wound shots (e.g. D3 wounds, D6 wounds), etc. Basically all the stuff stripped out of 40k was what enticed me to Warhammer.

Unfortunately, I'm not finding my 'half-games' fun, nor do I feel great about making my opponent feel shit for winning. I've learnt from my 40k split, that sticking around griping achieves nothing- a clean break and putting that time, money and effort into something I enjoy is more productive.

Ironbark

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Magic can be apain in the arse, and I feel one of the areas that will get a major overhaul in 8th edition. Its not that I have a problem with magic in warhammer, just the disparity across armies. Particularly the inability to have a decent defence with out taking a number of wizards yourself and maxing scrolls as Si already pointed out.

A prime example being High/Wood elf mages being so expensive once you factor in scrolls. By the time you have 2 mages (necessary) you might as well go all out and go magic heavy since you have already heavily invested in points. Approximately 300-400 points so about a 6th of your army at least, that just sits there hiding in a wood doing fuck all but adding dispel dice, and maybe gets off a couple of treesings in a game.

The thing about magic is it either changes the game entirely, or does bugger all (the latter in my case).

On big beasties. Theres definitely a place for them. I dont think things such as Dragons etc are the real problem. Its the hydra(s) Steam tanks and other cheap rare slot monstrositys that are game breaking.

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