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skcuzzlebumm

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Yesterday in the York store we were discussing the new nid book and all those little issues that need a FAQ to sort out before the Dakkadakka howler monkeys do. One thing that came up was the Doom of Malan'tai's "Soul Leech Power" and it if affects embarked units or not.

BOLS have actually got the same question:

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

Basic idea is Soul Leech happens at the start of the Nid shooting phase and affects all non-vehicle enemy units within 6".

Now does that effect units embarked in transports?

As BOLS says the knee jerk reaction is no because they aint 'on the board'.

BUT there are lots of things that can be done from inside a vehicle these days that effect units outside; storm call, KFF's, Fortune even firing a units weapons from a fire point of a tank.

So if all these units inside transports can effect units on the outside why shouldn't Soul Leech effect them on the inside?

Its an interesting connundrum that opens up all sorts of other possibilites; i.e casting Doom on a unit in a transport.

Opinions?

The Fallen Angel

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Well I got this shit ruling at the gt final a couple of years ago against a spanish tau player that my embarked firewarriors couldn't score an objective as 'they weren't on the table'. however they've now said they do score embarked.

I'm not sure though. If it was a psychic shooting attack or a normal shooting attack that you had to hit with then I'd say no.

Out of interest, what does the wording on nurgle's rot say as that's a similar thing?

Dazedandconfused

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Being thinking of that myself as well, I'd say no. The only psychic powers that spring to mind that can work from transports are powers cast from a transport to a unit on table ie doom- which also btw can't be cast on an embarked unit (main rulebook faq). Neither can mind war for example.

There are too many possibilities to screw everything up if they allowed this- ie you cause 25% what happens to the embarked unit? Do they flee from the transport in your shooting phase? How? If they allowed this sort of thing it will just create more unanswered questions.

Grotsmeg

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I think it all comes down to line of sight. Does it need line of sight to the model to be effective...

If it requires line of sight then no it cant work, if it doesnt require line of sight then yes i think it should work.

Iron_Mantis

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i think its a los issue. Its not a shooting attack therefore no los needed so i think it can.

Stompzilla

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So in that case it's a fair bet that it's best not to allow it.

Jase

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Iron_Mantis wrote:
i think its a los issue. Its not a shooting attack therefore no los needed so i think it can.

in this respect, does that mean a Hive Guard can shoot at models INSIDE a transport?

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Last edited by Jase (2010-01-29 20:18:48)

Iron_Mantis

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Hmm difficult, however psychich abilities are different to that of shooting attacks. I suppose it's a case of common sense and matter of oppinion.
The hive guard is still shooting a physical shot that would hit the tank before the unit inside it. Whereas a psychic ability could transcend physical presence and affect the minds/spirits etc of a unit inside a vehicle. Where this lies in rules of 40k I don't know.

I still think it can but I wouldn't be too put out if my opponent declared it couldn't. Probably for a sense of continuity it should be dissallowed (as you give a good example with the Hive Guard). It's difficult because things like doom for eldar sounds perfectly possible that you can doom a unit in a vehicle due to the description. I recon there will be a FAQ before the GT final anyways that will declare that it can't anyways.

There should be a blanket rule, I recon if a vehicle is open topped you should be able to use non-shooting psychic abilities on the unit inside but if it is closed then not. But hey when do GW ever write perfect common sense for all the possible scenarios that may arrise.

Dr. Bizarre

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I like how all the tyranid players are saying 'yes it should' and everyone else is like 'no no no'.

Dazedandconfused

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If it's a shooting attack how could it work against embarked units when hiveguard and tau sms can't shoot into transports?

If it's a psychic power why should it be allowed to effect embarked units when other non LOS powers can't?

Since doom (eldar one) has been faq'd to dissallow targetting embarked units I can't see this being any different in the nid faq.

Iron_Mantis

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ah right hadn't seen the eldar FAQing doom. Fair enough then I'd say no to tie in with the Eldar FAQ and wording.
Just to clarify it's not a shooting attack btw paul, but I totally get where you are coming from.

Iron_Mantis

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coppied from TWF

DoMs Life leech is not a Psychic attack... it just happens EVERY shooting phase.

copied from another forum:

Quote:
Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present a summary of the case for the defendants, allowing the use of "Spirit Leech", also known as "Soul Suck", against enemy units that may be embarked inside transport vehicles.

All quotes are entered exactly as they are printed in books "Warhammer 40,000" and "Codex: Tyranids", with page numbers and paragraph references for easy use.

"Warhammer 40,000", The Rules Section, page 3, "Models & Units"
Under the title "Models", first paragraph:
Quote:
The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow. Each model is an individual playing piece with its own capabilities.
Under the title "Units", third paragraph:
Quote:
A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'.
Unlike how a lot of people may talk and think about the rules, "model" and "unit" are not entirely interchangeable.

"Warhammer 40,000", The Rules Section, page 66, "Vehicles"
Under the sub-title "Embarking" under main title "Embarking and Disembarking". Whole paragraph here quoted for reference:
Quote:
A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase. The whole unit must be able to embark - if some models are out of range, the unit must stay outside. When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing one of the unit's models on top of the transport works well!). If the players need to measure a range involving the unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.
The stated rules indicate that all range measurements involving the unit, except for that unit's own shooting, is measured to the vehicle's hull. Therefore any abilities or effects that require range be measured to or from a unit, by definition, will include that unit if any part of the transport's hull is within that range.

"Codex: Tyranids", page 58, "The Doom of Malan'Tai"
Under the "Special Rules" main heading, "Spirit Leech":
Quote:
At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'Tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed.
So, on the face of it, it is fairly simple to determine how to apply this effect.

* When - At the beginning of all Shooting phases, even the enemy's.

* Who - Enemy units.

* Where - Within 6" of any part of the base of the model representing "The Doom of Malan'Tai".

** Sub-check - is any part of the hull of the Transport vehicle within range of "The Doom of Malan'Tai"?

*** If yes, by stated transport rules, then the unit transported is within range of "The Doom of Malan'Tai"'.

* How - The enemy units within range of the effect take a Leadership test.

** Sub-check - Did the unit fail its Leadership test?

** If yes, by stated rules of the special ability, that unit suffers a number of wounds equal to the amount they failed that test by, with no armour saves allowed. Invulnerable saves are allowed.

* What Now? - At the end of the phase, if any enemy units lost 25% of their number in casualties, they will require a Morale test. ("Warhammer 40,000", The Rules Section, p44, "Taking Morale Tests")

** Sub-check - Did the unit fail its Morale test?

*** If yes, by rules stated p45, "Fall Back!", the unit will immediately make a fall back move as appropriate to their unit type.

**** Further sub-check - do units forced to Fall Back that are inside transports dismount and then fall back? Or are they simply destroyed as the transport model is a friendly unit that stops them from moving?

Important things to note:

* The ability is not a shooting attack.

* The ability is not a psychic power.

* By inference, then, it is most definately not a psychic shooting attack.

* The ability affects units, not models.

* It does not target the unit, because "target" requires line of sight, while "effects" do not.

* "Vehicle destroyed - explodes" does not affect an embarked unit, because it states "all models" within range, not "all units"

* The unfortunate demise of a Tau Ethereal does not affect embarked units, because the ability specifically requires Tau units within line of sight of the Ethereal, and line of sight cannot be drawn through a vehicle.

In the light of logic, reason, and cold-hard facts, it can be seen, not just beyond reasonable doubt, but beyond any shadow of doubt, that the rules of the game would support the case for the defendant.

The case of what happens to units forced to fall back from inside their own transport units is a separate, though related, incident, to be discussed at a future date and time.

Good argument here, and the point about it not actually being a psychic power was quite noticeable, I hadn't realised it wasn't. I checked this in the psychic power section of the nid codex, and sure enough it wasn't listed. Very interesting stuff. Anyone up for debating these points?

At tourneys though I will probably play it the simple way, I.E. no it can't, however if they are being a cock....

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Last edited by Iron_Mantis (2010-01-30 01:24:58)

Ade

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hmmm i want to say yes, but it should effect the crew of vehicles as well and there is nothing in the rules to allow for it.

blessed knight

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I'd say yes, but possibly argue for a cover save.

Stompzilla

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Hahahahahahaha!

TWF you say? I've not been on there for months but may just mosey over to watch this little drama unfold. This is gonna be better than watching people fall over in the snow.

McKraken

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Iron_Mantis wrote:
coppied from TWF.....
Good argument here, and the point about it not actually being a psychic power was quite noticeable, I hadn't realised it wasn't. I checked this in the psychic power section of the nid codex, and sure enough it wasn't listed. Very interesting stuff. Anyone up for debating these points?

At tourneys though I will probably play it the simple way, I.E. no it can't, however if they are being a cock....

Under RAW (let's not start), if the enemy is within 6" then they are affected, as there is no further stipulation within the rule. That said, this would move the power from good to awesome so it will have to be FAQ-ed. I'm just glad I've switched to marines for the moment!

Iron_Mantis

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I know it's pretty daft innit?

Jase

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incidently, and i know this is dragging up an old issue which would be left forgotten till the faq comes out, but me and a guy in store today noticed this:

If doom of malantai's power affects units inside vehicles, then does that mean that Njal Stormcaller's Chain Lightning (result 7+ on his nifty weather chart thing) which states "At the end of Njal's shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5" would also not only affect the unit that is inside the transport, but also ironically, the transport aswell?

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Jase (2010-02-25 22:35:16)

Mad Larkin Uk

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No jason, as you obviously didnt read the bit about all of Njals powers requiring line of site :p

Jase

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touché

Bigger Mek

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Ill put it nice and simple, nope it does not work on people in transports. Anyone remember the Assassin codex from years back? The Calidus soul flamer thing had fluff to say that the vehicles aromour Protected the minds of the crew inside or something along them lines. People may come out with "oh it doesn't say it doesn't hit the men inside" well im pretty dam sure it dosen't say it can and till i see a codex or FAQ saying it can im not having it. I would hope people use some brains on this, if it could wipe an army out in 2 turns it would cost alot more. Instead of thinking "well i play as nids so i say it does work" think abit about the game, i mean anyone witha brain can see the tactic it was built for. You pop the transports and then your opponent has to choose to either get out of range of the dam thing or risk taking it down in which if they fail they are gonna get caught by this power.

Iron_Mantis

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I agree with you totally on RAI, however 40k is a permisive rule set not a dismisive one. It does say it affects every unit in 6 inches. If you are in the transport within 6 inches then your unit is within 6 inches. Unfortunatley there is nothing that says units in transport are protected from this. So RAW you can do it.
However I'm sure the FAQ will sort it out.

skcuzzlebumm

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But what your are basically saying is (a) use an example form a codex that was released 2 editions ago and has not been current/accepted/available for over 5 years, thin ground IMO, and (b) that you know the intention of the people who have written the rules. Again the easy counter argument to any debate of RAI is that unless you are the person who wrote those rules how can you possibly guess what they intended with any certainty or credibility?

end of the day Soul Leech is totally unique. It is not a shooting attack, it is not a psychic power, it is Soul Leech. It needs an FAQ else the argument will never end.

McKraken

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skcuzzlebumm wrote:
But what your are basically saying is (a) use an example form a codex that was released 2 editions ago and has not been current/accepted/available for over 5 years, thin ground IMO, and (b) that you know the intention of the people who have written the rules. Again the easy counter argument to any debate of RAI is that unless you are the person who wrote those rules how can you possibly guess what they intended with any certainty or credibility?

end of the day Soul Leech is totally unique. It is not a shooting attack, it is not a psychic power, it is Soul Leech. It needs an FAQ else the argument will never end.

I agree.

My view is that RAW supports it affecting embarked units. However, its such an unusual rule that I am NOT playing it that way until the FAQ comes out (Which, I suspect will say "no, it doesn't work on embarked units").

Out of interest, the ref's ruled against it affecting embarked units at this year's ToS final....

skcuzzlebumm

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I heard this but then in the 4th round I was playing next to a Nid player and heard the ref's rule it could.... again yet another example of why the old player driven ToS FAQ was so important and helpful.

Flame On Forum

Doom of Malan'tai

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