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Jeridian

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I promised myself I'd get my Dwarfs painted before a game, but I'm impatient.

Anyone want a 3000pts Fantasy game Thursday Vets night (can be in from 5pm onwards)?
Failing that I'll settle for a 2000pts game.

Bear in mind I suck at Fantasy, I'm bringing Dwarfs- and a non-Anvil one, so I'm not looking for hard-core Daemon tournament armies and comparables.

To better show my 'competitive level' here's a rough draft of my 2000pts list:

Dwarf Lord- Shieldbearers, bit of bling.
Runesmith- 2 scrolls
BSB- Banner of 5+ Ward.
Thane- Oathstone.

Thunderers- 15x Full Command. Handguns. Shields.
Quarellers- 15xFull Command. Crossbows. Shields.
Longbeards- 15xFull Command. Hand weapons. Shields. Banner of Ignore Fear.

Hammerers- 15xFull Command. Great weapons. Shields.
Miners- 5x
Cannon- 1xEngineer. Rune of Reloading.
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower

Volley Gun
Gyrocopter

2000pts

In the unlikely event of someone agreeing to 3000pts I would:
-Bulk the Miners, Hammerers and Longbeards to 20x
-Add 2x 20xDwarf Warriors. Full Command.
-Add 10xSlayers
-Panic
-Bling stuff out to fill points.

Grotsmeg

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I would love a 3k game, would even forgoe playing blood bowl that night...
What army would you like to face?

Jeridian

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Hmm, I'd prefer an army I know so Orcs & Goblins, Empire, VC, Dwarfs- but in truth, whatever you want to bring (preferably not Daemons).

Hopefully the Dwarfs seem purpose built for me (no Magic, tough decent foot soldiers, shooting).

At 2000pts admittedly my army is a gunline with a counter-attack/support of 2 small Ranked Infantry units.
At 3000pts I can manage a credible assault arm with 4 Ranked Infantry units and blinged characters.

I'm also gonna multiple my numbers by ten just to be annoying and confusing, hehe. "Deploying 150 Dwarf Warriors on this flank.."

Grotsmeg

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What time are you available from (You know i dont do daemons!)
I will probably just use ogres as i need to practise them for Mersey, So i need to up my current list to 3k and see if i actually have the models without resorting to Rhinox riders and special characters....

Jeridian

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Ogres sound fine, perhaps they'll have the numbers and kit to do well at 3000pts?!
I can be in around 5pm if that's good for you.

Grotsmeg

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Si still on for tonight i have loads of ogres with me.

Jeridian

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Yep, I'll be in for 5pm.

Jeridian

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Well, I was gonna write a battle report of this Fantasy game but my camera batteries died somewhere mid turn 3. My memory is shit through alcohol and insomnia so without the pictures I only have the most basic recall.

I know I lost, it was pretty hard fought, I tried an 'empty centre', with my shooty stuff on the right flank, and my combat stuff on the left flank- with heavy terrain to hopefully funnel the larger forces against my smaller (i.e. prevent all of them getting stuck in at once while all my troops can).
This worked initially on the left flank, but I made a fatal mistake of not following up thus giving the Ogres their Bull Charge outside of 6" (one of the dozens of special special rules I need to know and remember to do well in Warhammer). The Dwarfs to their credit died where they stood, at least until Fear became important (when the Hammerers died) and I went from a Ld10 Lord to a Ld2 coward.

On the right flank, Fear too pissed on my cunning plans. My 250pts 15 strong Thunderer unit went from Ld 9 resilient troops to Ld 2 cowards. Two units of Yhetees?! was enough to eventually cripple my right flank and the shooty half of my army.

As is common in Warhammer, the game turn 1-2 was careful maneouvering, turn 3-4 ebb and flow of combats, turn 5-6 rollover for one side (the bit where I tune out TBH).

Learnt some hard lessons.

-The Lesson about Fear was relearnt brutally. Go Fearless or Go Home. I had 2 fearless units, I now have 3- with the none-fearless being as expendable as possible.

-Standards. A 10pts standard costing me 110 Victory Points is frankly idiotic- what possible reason could there be for such a harsh penalty? +1 SCR may hurt if you lose by one, but a lot of the time the sheer weight of attacks mean you lose by a lot more- it's more important (for Dwarfs especially) to stick around by passing Break Tests and grind with S6 Thanes than to win the combat itself (desirable but considering I'm always going to be charged- unlikely). I know it's obvious that Standard Bearers on stuff like Thunderers is stupid for the above 100pts freebie to the enemy, but I liked the look of the unit, I'm almost tempted by 'invisible Standards' but that's not fair on my opponent WYSIWYG wise. I'm almost tempted to drop Standards completely form the army (is that +1 SCR really worth 110 Victory Points).

-Gyrocopter- That's a lot of pts in a unit that does very, very little. It's a very silly opponent who will give you free reign to hover just behind their marching infantry without a Cannon, or some shooters, or some agile charger in position to block it. Without this ability it's a S3 non-scoring flamer template...for 140pts. IMO it's worth just over half those pts.

Aside from those points, I think my strategy of an 'empty centre', an entrenched shooty extreme side flank and an aggressive extreme opposite side combat flank with lots of woods has great potential- it just needs a lot of refinement and a far greater knowledge of all the things opposing armies can do and can have.
Ogres for example, I didn't know I could prevent Bull Charge by moving within 6". I didn't compensate for Ogre units that could ignore woods. And I had a rude wake-up to the whole army causing Fear (my pet hate with Warhammer).

I'm also tempted to try out Outnumber Fear Causer being a -2 Ld modifier and would take VC in such an experiment...

Grotsmeg

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One point though, you do have to win the combat for outnumbered by fear to take effect.
Also i was very lucky to get both units of yhettee's to charge and have each unit with 2 yhettee's each when they hit.

You did give up one turn of shooting with your cannon against the block of gnoblars i think this was a mistake and you should have gone for it you only needed to kill 4 to cause a panic check and that would have freed you up to attack the bulls next turn both units were miles from the general so your plan for splitting the board that way was a good one.

I think you brought the miners onto the wrong part of the board edge, due to stupidity my tyrant the maneaters and the BSB and a unit of 6 bulls could all turn and charge you the next turn, the fact that i just used the maneaters backed by the unrequired bulls showed that on their own they were out of position.
They could have come on the board on my right flank bolstering that line with some backup flank charge, which could have turned that flank.

The gyrocopter just works much better against T3 ranked up units so the gnoblars would have got you a lot more kills and you didnt use its main skill which is to stop me marching. you delay my march then you get more turns shooting at me.

but it was a very good game, and you could have so easily won that on another day.

Jeridian

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One point though, you do have to win the combat for outnumbered by fear to take effect.

True, but with the exception of undead most units that cause Fear also pack a strong punch.

You did give up one turn of shooting with your cannon against the block of gnoblars i think this was a mistake and you should have gone for it you only needed to kill 4 to cause a panic check and that would have freed you up to attack the bulls next turn both units were miles from the general so your plan for splitting the board that way was a good one.

It was the Volley Gun, and I know I would have rolled a Misfire and exploded if I fired it. My naive plan was that you would put the Gnoblars up front shielding the Ogres expecting me to wipe out the Gnoblars and give the Ogres a free run into combat- I intended not to shoot the Gnoblars and let them charge me instead- with Stubborn and T4 there's a decent chance my Volley Gun could have held them. I didn't realise, or simply didn't account for, wheeling allowing the Ogres and Gnoblars both to have charge targets.
In hindsight I agree I should have shot at the Gnoblars then, being the only target.

I think you brought the miners onto the wrong part of the board edge, due to stupidity my tyrant the maneaters and the BSB and a unit of 6 bulls could all turn and charge you the next turn, the fact that i just used the maneaters backed by the unrequired bulls showed that on their own they were out of position.

Agreed, I knew it was bad as soon as those Ogres 'about turn' ed. I need to be a lot more cagey with Dwarfs, the Miners (especially in my 2000pts list with only 5) are purely there to capture/contest and enemy quarter. So yes, I agree I should have walked them on on the right flank (your left) to have something sat in that quarter.

In that game I just fed the Miners to a bunch of units that otherwise didn't have much to do.

The gyrocopter just works much better against T3 ranked up units so the gnoblars would have got you a lot more kills and you didnt use its main skill which is to stop me marching. you delay my march then you get more turns shooting at me.

It does have uses, and if it does get behind a battleline with no shooting/chargers to prevent it it can slow an army to a crawl, but this doesn't happen as often, and is often too little too late.
With a 20" charge, it's only gonna get behind you turn 2. By which time Ogres for example are halfway across the board.
It's the 140pts price tag that I can't stomach.
Besides which Dwarfs are hated enough for gunline and cagey games- slapping opponents with a crawl is further insult and leaves bad memories. I've instead squeezed a 20 strong Dwarf Warriors unit in to bolster my Hammerers on the aggressive combat flank. Pushing this flank forward will stop any justified cries of 'static gunline' and 'Dwarfs don't move'.

but it was a very good game, and you could have so easily won that on another day.

Aye, you won it fair and square. Even with Fear Causer -2, I was looking at Ld 4-5 tests. As much as the Hammerers side of the game was bloody, I think the Thunderers side tipped the game in your favour- I just bled far too many points when those Thunderers ran and handed you a standard (so 350pts lost on one Ld 2 test).

My rough 2000pts list after this experience is:

Dwarf Lord- GW, HW, shield, Shieldbearers, 4+ Ward (in Hammerers).
Thane BSB- HW, Standard- Rune of Guarding, Rune of Courage (in Warriors)
Thane- GW, HW, shield, Oathstone. (in Longbeards)
Runesmith- GW, HW, shield, 2xScrolls. (in Thunderers?)

Thunderers- 12x
Quarellers- 12x
Longbeards- 15x Full Command- Rune of Courage.
Warriors- 20x Full command.

Hammerers- 18x Full command.
Miners- 5x
Cannon- 3x. 1xEngineer- Rune of reloading.
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower

Volley Gun

-I'm very tempted to drop all the banners.

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Last edited by Jeridian (2010-02-13 02:19:27)

Benthomas

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Jeridian wrote:
Dwarf Lord- GW, HW, shield, Shieldbearers, 4+ Ward (in Hammerers).
I can see the benefit in trying to go for a cheap lord but I'm not sure a 4+ ward is the best way to go with your points. I've always liked using MRoSteel coupled with RoResistance so that attacks are never more than S5 giving no less than a 3+ rerollable armour save

Thane BSB- HW, Standard- Rune of Guarding, Rune of Courage (in Warriors)
Mincemeat for whatever fast character your opponent has, or monster, or good cavalry unit. 4+ save doesnt really cut it anymore and until we get the same ability as the new books to give BSBs mundane equipment I font think we can risk expensive magic banners on them.

Thane- GW, HW, shield, Oathstone. (in Longbeards)
Nice, but I'm SURE you can find 5 pts for a RoStone

Runesmith- GW, HW, shield, 2xScrolls. (in Thunderers?)
good (RoStone?)

Thunderers- 12x
Quarellers- 12x
It took me a long time to learn to ALWAYS put shields on these guys. Reduce them to 10 if you have to but T4, 4+ save missile troops is incredibly good.

Longbeards- 15x Full Command- Rune of Courage.
Warriors- 20x Full command.
Not bad, really like the RoCourage on Longbeards, if you go for no magic banner on the BSB and give him magic armour etc, I'd put him in here

Hammerers- 18x Full command.
Hammerers are the best unit in the Dwarf book by some way, but again, find the points to give them shields. Makes them more resilient to enemy shooting and magic and gives you more versitility in CC

Miners- 5x
I dont like miners without an anvil, but have a go, see what you get with them.

Cannon- 3x. 1xEngineer- Rune of reloading.
Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
I dont know what that "3x" means on the cannon as you dont have enough special slots for that. Either way RoForging is a MUST for Dwarf cannons. Sets us aside from other shooty races. At least one bolt thrower should have a RoPenetrating. S7 Bolt throwers are nice and handy. Also if you go for a shooting engineer, BT is the place for him, +1 to hit is much better than rerolling misfires.

Volley Gun
The closest Dwarfs get to filth, love it

-I'm very tempted to drop all the banners.
dont. Perfectly fine in combat blocks, you are right to lose them from missile troops though

Hope that is some help

Grotsmeg

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Your bolt throwers did only hit twice IIRC once against the yhettee's and then the gnoblars, they didnt work as well as they could, on another day they could have held your left flank easily.

Also i got first turn and in a bull rush against a partial gunline thats a big advantage. If you had got first turn then you would have had more chances to thin me down.
Thats got Re-match written all over it.

Jeridian

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Thanks for the advice Ben.

I should mention the Thunderers, Quarellers and Hammerers do have Shields. I agree that having gun troops who then revert to 4+ save combat troops is awesome- their the equal of many armies basic combat troops without guns. It was part of the reason why I included Full Command, as they could operate as a basic ranked infantry combat unit quite adequately- unfortunately basic ranked infantry combat units have no place in the game.

The BSB is relatively fragile, I agree. Hopefully the Champion can challenge to help him avoid damage.
I plan for him to be in the Warriors, who will be deployed on the extreme flank (touching the side table edge probably) right next to the Hammerers and slightly back from them. So to charge them your frontage must be equal or smaller than 5 wide 20mm, making it difficult for cavalry charges. If they hold, you have a Hammerer unit to worry about.
I gave him the Rune of Guarding for some better protection, and the Rune of Courage to increase my Fearless units. Go Fearless or Go Home.

The 3x on Cannon is the number of crew, just ignore it.

The rest of the advice involves plucking a huge chunk of extra pts from the ether. Where would you suggest cuts to include all those things?

Richard- Yeah, the Bolt Throwers sucked but they where dirt cheap so I can't complain. You were right on the rules- they have to kill outright the first model to hit the second.
So another lesson learnt, going for a ranked Ogre unit (rare admittedly, although you could hit the side) with Bolt Throwers isn't gonna get additional kills. Just aim for targets on other merits (character sniping, valuable single models, etc) rather than rank cutting.

On a re-match, my Dwarf army will probably be quite different. At 3000pts I'm even tempted by an Anvil Lord as my 2nd choice.

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