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Iron_Mantis

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So no one going to throne of skulls then anymore?
This rules pack is absolutley rediculous.

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

Curis

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Can you explain why you think its so bad?

skcuzzlebumm

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I may do one next year if we organise it, just like Graham suggested, to be a massive Flame On outing/social for the weekend, but I am certainly not rushing to get a ticket for any competitive reasons. As I mentioned elsewhere for me I can go to 2 independent weekends for the price of ToS, and without a final there is no-longer a financial incentive.

Iron_Mantis

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Because for example you can win the tounament by only winning a couple of games.
The tournament says that the overall winner is the person who has the best average compared to others with the same army. So let's say that only two dark eldar players enter. One comes last the other comes 50th. That's 50 places above the average of the two. I can't imagine there being another player with an average that good, therefore although he only came 50th with say 3 wins he could have won the entire tournament.
A bit stupid no?
I wish GW would realise that they already have a painting tournament in the Golden Troll awards. It's not like if I enter a model in that I fair better by being nice to other entrants or by entering a model no one else did. For crying out loud. Why can't they just have a gaming tournament for gamers and a painting for painters.

Ade

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I don't think it is that bad to be honest, it rewards people who do well with an obscure or "non-competitive" army, rewards people who put time into their army and are good sports. It means that going with an army such as VC, DE or deamons in FB (I dont know what the current broken lists are in 40k, which army book came out last?) is not going to net you a tournament win, you need to go for something a bit less standard to come out as best overall player on the day.

Its not like it is aimed at you anymore anyway, and its not like you where actually going to go since they changed the format.

Iron_Mantis

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I know but it's still a rediculous way to do 40k. The 5th ed codicies are really well balanced and this system is just not needed. I'm just bitter that the GT from 3 years ago has gone down the pan. With it being basically acceptable to WAAC if you don't speeky the language well as you just can't debate rules. Also it is now pointless winning a GT becuase it doesn't reflect your gaming ability just your ability to work out what the least popular army is. I can't speak for warhammer but for 40k it's a big step backwards.
If they want to introduce a tournament like this that takes into account all aspects of the hobby, i.e. painting gaming and ability to draw a nice rosta (I mean seriously?). Then that's ok but please don't remove the actual gaming skill based tourney entirely.
Like I said they have golden troll, why not a skill in the gaming tourney. It basicall makes it impossible for players who have no painting ability or ability to draw to do well at a tournament.

Added 06.28.2010 19:44:00:

it rewards people who do well with an obscure or "non-competitive" army,

Also I don't think this has any relevance.
The premier league doesn't reward teams who take non-competative teams. You wouldn't take a 80stone sprinter to the olympics if you wanted to do well, yes it would be fun but hey you know damned well you aint gonna win.
If you go to a tourney where you don't really care aboult the result then hey take the non-competative list. (I.e. like I do to every tourney except GT and ETC) But don't expect to be coming in the top 10.

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Last edited by Iron_Mantis (2010-06-28 18:44:46)

Ade

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you don't think someone who wins 75% of his games with a Grey Knights list, is a better player than someone who wins 95% with some net list?

your Olympics comment would be fine if these games are in any way balanced, but they are not. Painting, modeling and being a good sport have always been part of the hobby (hobby not game), you dont think that there should be some reward for someone who takes a heavily converted good looking army with them; vs some kid who sprayed and drybrushed?

You don't like the changes that is fine, but your vision of what the GW tournament should be is different to what their own is, they are trying to instil what they think the essence of their hobby is (they keep telling people it is the GW hobby, not wargaming that they are participating in)

If you want to go WAAC there are events out there for that. I have seen no evidence of you playing anything other than must win (admittedly that is just from on here as I don't play 40k claymore)

anathema

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The GT as was is dead. Even if you won it you wouldn't count it as being as good as winning a massive indie event these days so why get all worked up? Go to the big independent events, the GT stopped being a purely gaming event when they got rid of the final and at then of the day GW will still sell out each event so they can do what they want until the ticket sales dry up. Which they won't.

wanderingrogue

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It still sucks ass, it's not a tournament now, it's an elaborate hobby workshop with prizes. Frankly they can keep it and blow it out their butts. The fact that's it run by matt Lincoln and so will be an unmitigated clusterfuck no matter what format it takes is just icing on the cake.

Iron_Mantis

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If you want to go WAAC there are events out there for that. I have seen no evidence of you playing anything other than must win (admittedly that is just from on here as I don't play 40k claymore)

I never said I play WAAC, sigh.
What I am trying to say all my most enjoyable moments have come whilst with my friends at the various tournaments at WHW and I am more than slightly POd that they are basically ruining the tournament for a lot of people in the gaming community.

Bigger Mek

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im not going, sean showed me his white dwarf for this month at lunch today, its one game less , 3 games on the saturday and 2 on the sunday, couple that with no final being played this time round id say im with the lads on this one id rather go for a weekend event with 6 games than a competition with only 5. Sorry Iron Mantis but i agree with Ade on his point of view, i think obscure armies such as daemon hunters and raven wing etc should be considered for some sort of award if they win most of their games as its alot harder to win with an army like that. i think this is their way of saying we are sick and tired of it being all power armour armies and little variety. Sadly the reduction in games has caused me to think it is not worth the trip.

Jeridian

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The GT has come full circle then?

When I started there where pts for Painting, for Sportsmanship, heck even Background Text pages got points.
The statement on the rulespack (paraphasing) that is was a celebration of the GW Hobby- [game system], actually made sense when you were rewarded for all aspects.
In recent years Painting and Sportsmanship where pretty hollow.

I also am intrigued by GW's attempts to diversify armies at the GT- using the popularity of an army to roughly predict it's competitiveness. Predictably they've chosen to bludgeon the problem with a hamfisted method, but the intent is noble.
A more complex system whereby players General Game scores are weighted by the army they play and the number of that army at that tournament such that a win by a DE player has slightly more worth (but not the huge difference in Gaz's example) than the most common army would be great.

It wouldn't be perfect of course, SM players would be punished most for having most players whilst not particually being the most competitive, but it may encourage the 'Premiership players' to bring an obscure list they've honed to improve their odds.

My views on Heats and Finals are pretty well known- I'd rather go to two cheaper tournaments, than go to one and pay for you to go to a second...

Of course, GW predictably kept the price and cut the value, so it's a mute point.

Iron_Mantis

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Hey don't get me wrong I enter tourneys all the time with bad lists. I just don't think you need a pat on the back for doing that.

Curis

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Iron_Mantis wrote:
I wish GW would realise that they already have a painting tournament in the Golden Troll awards.

Winning a best painted award is a whole different thing to winning a Golden Demon. Best army is about conceiving and executing a cohesive themed force of hundreds of models, painting them to a middling-to-high standard. You're only taking on maybe another half dozen competitors tops (as most people don't go to win best painted). Golden Demon's about painting one to a few models to a godlike standard and taking on the world.

Bigger Mek

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iron mantis there is no such thing as a bad list, in the end its all on the roll of a dice. Try using daemon hunters or raven wing like my two good friends have done in the past two years, they didnt win many, they drew alot and got two wins each that to me shows ability to take a non favoured choice of force and turn it into something competative. Both armies i may add were decently painted.We all like to see armies like this do well, ive heard players say the likes of "OMG there was a necron army in the top 10" why shouldnt there be, sure its an older codex but that is what makes it more of a challenge. we could all take the newest most fancy codex with all the right rules (sorry blood angel players not meaning to upset you here please dont set your killer dreds on me) but where is the challenge in that? its the easy road and the most simple to success, when something comes easy its not really worth bragging about, when it turns up after a hard slog involving some improvisation and abit of luck its more worth while. Thats my lot on this anyway. good luck to any who do decide to go

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Last edited by Bigger Mek (2010-06-28 23:51:46)

Jeridian

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Hey don't get me wrong I enter tourneys all the time with bad lists. I just don't think you need a pat on the back for doing that.

I think it's more to do with diversity of armies from GW's perspective.
Since neither core system is remotely balanced (a legacy Codex/Army Book system makes this nigh impossible- you can't write an army book to work perfectly 2 Editions in the future that haven't been written yet...), players gravitate towards the most competitive and the GT's can become very boring (Warhammer this became embarassingly noticeable with Daemons).

This can be a real turn-off for people to attend, and reflects badly on their ability to write decent army lists.

They needed to encourage players to take the 'bad lists', and this requires more than a pat on the back. You need to make it a competitive element itself, a sort of additional level of metagame were the ultra-competitive players now have to consider the number of Army X likely to show up and how this will affect their odds of winning. They then face the choice of either going with Army X, the easiest army and hoping to do amazing, or choosing Army Y, the hardest and doing amazing considering it's a 'bad list'.

I will be fascinated to read the results and see a less predictable top 10.

Iron_Mantis

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I think me may have to agree to disagree here. I think there is such thing as a bad list.
If you write one with no anti-tank in then you will struggle.
If you think it's more rewarding to win something with a "challenging" list then I'll pm you my eldar list that won me GT heat 3 a couple of years ago or even the list that I came second at BOTCH last year with, then you can look at them and think hmm that is a challenging list to win with. I currently use the Eldar codex which only has about 5 codex's older than it and still manage to do well, without ever using a seer council. You see I fit nicely into the group of players you described above.

I think you need to understand I don't have anything about people being awarded best painted tropheys in fact I think it is great. However I don't think you should get extra generalship points for it as being able to paint has nothing to do with your generalship skill.

Another point was that the first time I've ever used a special character at a tourney was at botch this year. Before that I enjoyed challending myself to write a list without it. As Si says it is enjoyable to create your own challenges, I just don't think the format of this new tourney is that fantastic.

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Last edited by Iron_Mantis (2010-06-29 00:31:59)

Abyssal Terror

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I have to agree with Iron mantis on this one quite a bit. As you all know I am one for the underdog etc, being a beastmen player. Although in theory its a nice idea what Gw has done to GT its not about generalship anymore, nor is it about best painted armies actually getting voted for either. Firstly you have to play the army to vote for the favourite army so maximum u can get for it is 5 points, but peopel might not think it is a great army etc, it may look pretty but not fight well so will not get vote, favourite army and best painted are now very different things and I agree with Curis about the diff betwen ToS and GD.

Overall this a a joke, if the rules applied last year to this year, I would have one my heat. average place without me was 150 so difference of 110 or so... but do I deserve to win the tournament? no I didnt, I didnt win all my games, dnt get me wrong it was hard especially with beastmen, but the fact is I chose to take beasts for the army's sake and my like of them, the challenge came from me wanting to play with that army. You shouldn't be rewarded for being the only player of your army, or that u did slightly better than other people with your army, if you want that creat a different event.

GT is dead, it truly is, what is the point of going if everyone tries to take the underdog just so they can have an easier time, it doesnt make sense, yes you will get different armies, but for what reason, the same reason we get VC, DoC, DE etc b4, because people want to win.

If Gw was so desperate for people to take different armies they could have done 2 things, one right more balanced/fair books so there isnt the feel like that one particular book will annhilate most things or for GT given a seperate award, for best outsider, so have one award for it seperate to the rest like they have in the new rules pack.

then you would have a compeition and some people who take the weaker armies would get rewarded if they are good enough generals.

The Fallen Angel

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I like the fact its changed so you can win best army for individual armies but the way they work out the winner is a bit weird. Couldn't they just have the person who does the best? Would be a reason to use my GK at it.

However at £55 for 5 games.....no thanks, not by a long shot.

Jeridian

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When I talk about 'bad lists' I don't mean when some muppet doesn't bring anti-tank, or otherwise selects poor choices. Every Army Book or Codex has duff choices and can produce ineffective lists.

When I talk about 'bad lists' I mean Army Book Lists/Codex Lists, you should be compensated for taking an Army Book/Codex that is considered underpowered and/or extremely rare. Most other tournaments have some form of Comp for this reason- they know GW is rubbish at game balance.

Using a less competitive Eldar list (i.e. not Harlie spam) in 4th Ed is not exactly going 'Grey Knight', the Codex List was still filth. And you'd rightly not recieve compensation for doing so.

Using army popularity to determine army competitiveness is a crude but effective method of bringing variety, it's just GW took it too far. They should have worked out some bonus points for weaker armies based on army attendance levels.

Grotsmeg

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The Fallen Angel wrote:
I like the fact its changed so you can win best army for individual armies but the way they work out the winner is a bit weird. Couldn't they just have the person who does the best? Would be a reason to use my GK at it.

However at £55 for 5 games.....no thanks, not by a long shot.

Tempest rising used the same system for who won and it worked fine for me. As it gave me a chance of winning with a tier 3 army. Gaz himself has come up with something like 7 tiers for 40k. So I applaud this method of working out the best general.
I would love this in Botch as it means it doesnt matter what army you use, its how you do compared to the other generals who use the same army as you.

I still think there should be an award for the most wins though. If you win all of your games in a tourney and masssacre all your enemies its a bit naff not getting recognition for it.

and 5 games means i also have lost a lot of interest. esp 5 games of 40k, for most armies the games are so quick you could easily play one more game not one less.

anathema

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So GW impliedly admit that their tournaments need some type of comp. Interesting.

On the subject of Grey Knights, I know of only one person which ever qualified on gaming points. I went into game 6 on 2 wins and a draw a few year ago but got predictably stomped by Sharan. They're a greatly underpowered codex and not the only one but under the new system I may even have qualified with them which would have been nice.

WarbossKurgan

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anathema wrote:
under the new system I may even have qualified with them which would have been nice.

Except there isn't a final to qualify for under the new system.

mike

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Grotsmeg wrote:
[
Tempest rising used the same system for who won and it worked fine for me.

i think the difference was at tempest they stipulated that there needed to be 4 armies of a race for you to qualify to win the "best in show" award

ukrocky

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Hot dang. I would of won Fantasy Heat 1 under this system.

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