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Grotsmeg

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Totally agree with Rule 7 even though my butchers are loving second rank safety!

walkingginger

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i would like to see mind razor restricted to one use as well. Other then that looking good and very happy with it.

Agilgar

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Grotsmeg wrote:
jimbo wrote:
i am guessing that the standerd botch force restictions will be in play so no double hydra and stuff, over all i like it but theres a few things i think could do with a change, if your giving look out sirs agaisnt dwellers and those other spells i think only letting them be cast once is a bit OTT (don't know what other people think on this) oh and skaven units realy need caping at 30 as 40 is too much on 2 point models
Why dont we just cap all units to 30, job done then... saves the discussions on which units should be capped at what level

Given that 40 seems to be emerging as the standard size for a horde, I'm especially thinking of my Empire state troops, who are pretty worthless unless they are in hordes of 40-60. Also, a horde of 40 soldiers just looks a lot better on the table. I think that capping unit size at 30 would be breaking the spirit of the game; 40 should be the minimum maximum for cheap core troops.

Grotsmeg

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I did think of another rule for limiting the we aint every running away units.

A unit can not have more ranks than it has models in each rank. so if you want a 6 deep column you have to be 6 wide etc, 10 deep then you have to be 10 wide.
OK its not a ground breaking fix, but it will mean you have to spend more on that unit to get stupid amount of ranks.

Frog

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ive not played 8 ed yet! lol better get my skates on!

Agilgar

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Grotsmeg wrote:
I did think of another rule for limiting the we aint every running away units.

A unit can not have more ranks than it has models in each rank. so if you want a 6 deep column you have to be 6 wide etc, 10 deep then you have to be 10 wide.
OK its not a ground breaking fix, but it will mean you have to spend more on that unit to get stupid amount of ranks.

I have always thought that that would be a good rule for infantry (it obviously would not work for Bretonnian cavalry).

Nethrag

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Ok, I’ll try and go through all the points raised so far, apologies if I miss yours!

Read – power scroll. You do not have to get lucky for a power scroll to work – throwing 6 dice at it is almost guaranteed and if you throw 7 (grey seer/dark elf) it IS a guarantee.

Imagine that instead of your big block of “X” knights you had a block of chosen or something and then some skaven player comes along and says – take off 4d6 of them with nothing you can hope to do about it – not fun therefore not allowed. We’re just going to have to disagree on that one.

Transformation of Kadon I agree with you on, I think it’s a rubbish spell which gets your wizard killed, I put it in as it had a high cast – more than happy to take it out.

Tower – many builds are specifically designed around the tower as a way to play a very boring defensive game, I’d rather cut it out initially in the rule pack rather than have to just timmy comp a list when it arrives.

Jimbo – the big spells are not only used for killing characters in units? They’ll often destroy half a unit per cast (and when units are 30-40 models that’s a bit ott imo). If I was to go one restriction or the other it’d be to only allow them to be cast once a game – but then you still run the risk of a single dice character assassination deciding the outcome of the game when you play TK/VC etc?
Would like more peoples opinions on this as it’s something I’ll change if the majority of people want it, but I’m not personally convinced.

Also disagree that 40 is too large for skaven units. Skaven units are, in themselves, crap, 40 models is enough that they are likely steadfast for a turn or two if engaged with something decent with its own ranks but not too many that its pointless engaging them as you’ll just be stuck on them forever.

Grotsmeg – agree, waaagh being restricted when van hels is not is unfair – consider waagh taken off the list. But yes will be considered again when the new book comes out.

Specifics like certain magic item combos will be timmy comped on an individual basis as I can’t think of every combo available to every army.

Phil –
1) & 3) Great
2) The reason why there are different unit sizes for different points models is to allow cheap units to horde properly while at the same time trying to limit builds which revolve around 1-2 units which contain all of the opponents points and are exceptionally difficult to kill. Hope that makes sense.
4) Great
5) I’m not averse to ditching this rule – though it does give certain armies large artificial (by which I mean rules/items written with 7th ed in mind which are more powerful than they were designed to be in 8th) advantages in the way the magic phase works compared to others. More opinions please.
6) If anyone has some suggestions as to how to word this better please make them 
7) Now that Jimbo has explained a little as to why I think this slight change is needed are you more happy with it or would you still prefer not and just run the risk of people abusing it?

Walking ginger – perfectly happy adding mindrazor to the list, though that and the pit also being on the list are going to make it harder for any stank to find its way onto an empire army (pit can scatter off and then all a lot of armies have left is mindrazor). Others opinions?

Agilgar – agree that below 40 is too small for cheap troops.

Grotsmeg – I like that but as people wanted minimum rules changes, just comp I think max unit size whilst writing list is seen as comp whereas your rule changes how you can use your units during the game which people are more resistant to.

I do need to come up with max sizes for cavalry and the other unit types (ogres and minos spring to mind) – other option is to add that a unit cannot be more than 450 points (ignoring attached characters) - like the ETC rules.

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Last edited by Nethrag (2011-02-05 11:51:24)

blessed knight

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how about adding an unmodified Ld test to get the big spells off fter you've committed dice to them?

that way low level mages who get the big spells aren't useless for the game.

Nethrag

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because that wouldn't effect most mages - a rerollable (BSB) Ld9 (even cold blooded or Ld10 etc for some wizard lords) is no real barrier at all.

A low level mage can either choose to drop it down to the basic spell or keep it and go for the big cast.

jimbo

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spells i think should be on the list for casting once are - dwellers, pit,purple sun,13th spell, gateway

walkingginger

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personally less bothered about the pit then mindrazor. The ability of mindrazor to kill any unit in the game when cast onto any elf unit is rediculous. I reckon it leads to people having to play defensive as you can't engage anywhere because one casting of the spel and the unit is pretty much dead. Pit can only really do that against the low I armies. I may be the only one that feels this way in whch case, must just be me lol.

I agree the stank is an issue, but leaving the pit i the deck wouldn't be a problem for me.

Davespaceman

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what about making helves use high magic?

Benthomas

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The problem with limiting Dwellers to one use is that for many armies it is their only way of breaking down massive units. When I'm faced with, say, 40 Orcs, I NEED Dwellers to thin down their numbers before I reach combat or else they will be steadfast forever.

mike

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how about, this is a little out of left field

All wizards are only allowed to use a number of power dice equal to their wizard level to cast/dispel spells. this allows you to allow power scroll, allow miscast manipulation (as there are fewer miscasts) and allow multiple cast of the high end spells (as they are harder to cast)

A model count cap doesnt really work for me - theres alot of difference between 30 chosen warriors and 30 VC skellies, however they are both capped at the same point.

Instead I would do - units points cap of 400pts

All characters must be placed in the front rank.

Characters get look out sir from spells which target every model in the unit.

Thats all the comp I think you need.

skcuzzlebumm

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mike wrote:
how about, this is a little out of left field

All wizards are only allowed to use a number of power dice equal to their wizard level to cast/dispel spells. this allows you to allow power scroll, allow miscast manipulation (as there are fewer miscasts) and allow multiple cast of the high end spells (as they are harder to cast)

A model count cap doesnt really work for me - theres alot of difference between 30 chosen warriors and 30 VC skellies, however they are both capped at the same point.

Instead I would do - units points cap of 400pts

All characters must be placed in the front rank.

Characters get look out sir from spells which target every model in the unit.

Thats all the comp I think you need.

I really like that, its simple and certainly addresses a lot of the bigger issues without too much of a complicated re-write.

What are we thinking for points levels guys? Are we going to stick with the many armylists or maybe go for something simpler and just allow the %'s to do the hard work.

mike

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following 40k example might not be bad idea. like, 2 games at 1600 pts, 2 games at 2400, 2 games at 3000 (but with no "large army" rules - i cant remember the official name)

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Last edited by mike (2011-02-06 21:08:58)

read

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not loving the as many dice as your wizard level, menas level 2 wizards can't cast certain spells what happens if they roll them, we're slipping back into seventh here

vodrake

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Instead of timmy comping I did hear of a comp system that just rates each players list and then when you play you would either gain or loose tournament points depending on your list versus your opponents.

The way it works is that you rate each army between 0 and 15 based on how tough it is. When you play you compare your comp score to your opponents, so if mine is 15 and yours is 0 you, what you do is half the differance, and in this case get 7.5. So if your army was the weaker one, you would add this differance to your tourney points, and if your army was the more powerful you would remove it.

For example, if you table your opponent 20-0 but your list was gay and his was super soft then you would only get 12.5 pts and your opponent would get 7.5

Obviously this is an extreme case, but if your army was...an 8 and your opponents was a 6, the differance is only 2. So the lower player would add 1 point to his score and the higher player would remove one point.

Dont know if I have explained that very well, does it make sense? Would recommend having three people give scores to each list and then average them out.

[edit] Forgot to mention, this also does mean that you dont automatically get points or loose points for your army list as it depends on your opponent, so if you have a bent list, but play an equally bent list, niether of you will gain or loose anything as the match should be fair.

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Last edited by vodrake (2011-02-06 21:38:59)

mike

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@read

out of the 102 spells in the big rule book, a level 2 couldnt cast only 21 of them. AND all of those 21 are either Boosted higher levels spells - or spell choice number 6 (ie the big deadly ones people want to make one use only)

plus i cant think of any other spells from the army books they couldnt cast (13th spell is grey seer only, gateway is castable as you need to be tzeentch so get +1 to cast)

so i think thats fairly fair (ie the BIG spells are all reserved for the better wizards)

and, as you cant roll the signiture spell, a level 2 can ALWAYS be armed with two spells he can cast (unless you take lvl2 and lvl4 wizards from the same big rule book lore, and roll the level 4 first, and dont get a 6 with the level 4, and take the signiture spell with the level 4, and then roll a 6 with the level 2. ie unlikely)

@pete - problem with that is its completely subjective and opens you up to ALOT of complaining.

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Last edited by mike (2011-02-06 21:44:45)

Nethrag

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Eh? What army do you play that has no answer to 40 orcs except dwellers?

Mike - dont like the dice per wizard level as it makes a lot of spells prohibitively hard to cast for Lv 2's yet alone Lv 1's.

However like I said in a previous post (or was that on warhamster forum - I forget) I do agree we need a points cap on units (ETC uses 450 so would prob go with that). However this would be in addition to rather than instead of the model limit else you open it up to 100model units of slaves etc.

Am currently looking at 1500 --> 1800 --> 2200 --> 2600 --> 2999 (two games at this level) for points sizes of games. 3 small 3 large like last year.

Pete - like it and its interesting but just not for BotCH for the reasons I said on the phone plus Mikes one above.

spells i think should be on the list for casting once are - dwellers, pit,purple sun,13th spell, gateway

why dwellers but not plague wind? Why pit but not black horror?!

personally less bothered about the pit then mindrazor.

can I get some others opinions on this please?

mike

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does it really?

unboosted

with the exception of shadows (which has two) every lore has 3 spells or more that a lvl 2 would need a 7+ or less to cast (ie average) - most have 4

41 of the 56 standard unboosted spells would require a 9+ or less on two dice for a level 2

Added 02.07.2011 00:20:50:
as for still having to do the other stuff(warhamsters)

i dont think a power scroll - i am right in thinking its only one phase only? an you can only throw 4 dice. its good, but nowhere near as broken as when your throwing 6 dice!

likewise miscats manipulation is still good definatly - but with miscast occuring a lot less (remember lvl2's can only throw 2 dice so alot rarer miscasts for them on top of the reduced lvl 4 miscast) could easy be a waste of points (how many times did you used to irrestible when only throwing 4 dice in 7th? once or twice a game if your lucky?)

yes the big spells will still be castable by level 4's - but dispelable, by lvl4's - as they wont irrestibale as often, and they are nowhere near as guarenteed as a 6 dice cast.

its not perfect i agree, but i think it can solve all problems sufficiently while not complicating things.

only true way to test is to play test i guess.

Grotsmeg

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skcuzzlebumm wrote:
mike wrote:
how about, this is a little out of left field

All wizards are only allowed to use a number of power dice equal to their wizard level to cast/dispel spells. this allows you to allow power scroll, allow miscast manipulation (as there are fewer miscasts) and allow multiple cast of the high end spells (as they are harder to cast)

A model count cap doesnt really work for me - theres alot of difference between 30 chosen warriors and 30 VC skellies, however they are both capped at the same point.

Instead I would do - units points cap of 400pts

All characters must be placed in the front rank.

Characters get look out sir from spells which target every model in the unit.

Thats all the comp I think you need.
I really like that, its simple and certainly addresses a lot of the bigger issues without too much of a complicated re-write.

What are we thinking for points levels guys? Are we going to stick with the many armylists or maybe go for something simpler and just allow the %'s to do the hard work.

I agree game mechanic wise, but i think there are some army specific ones as well.
Otherwise its just going to be 6 games of points denial and that would ruin the tournament.

zelophahad

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8th Ed is obviously considerably better for fun friendly games than tournament play! I think I'll sit back and wait for the rules pack and then decide whether to join in or go 40K again.

vodrake

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My thoughts on COMP are mainly focused on the magic phase, I think the rules for the rest of the game are ok. That said it wouldnt bother me to use the other LOS rules and it doesn't really concern me about putting characters in the front rank all the time.

For magic the changes I would make would be to make spells that can/do hit characters in units (except for ones that specifically target them) only ever deal one wound. For example dwellers, final transmutation, curse of the horned rat etc. Also make gateway, instead of wiping out a unit when you roll 11 or 12 on strength, do the normal number of hits, auto wound, no armour and no ward saves. So its still deadly, but not uber gay once in a whille. Also no power scroll or items that generate extra power dice and limit the max extra dispell dice empire can get to three. The reason why I say no items for extra dice is that means you dont need to limit the max dice per phase as the only way to get more dice is by casting spells, or with death magic, which I think is fair enough

For army comp, max points size for a unit of 450 sounds about right, think 400 is too low, 450 should be cool though. Maybe a lower limit on the first game? Not thought too much about that though.

Russ

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Are there really any other units as bad as skaven slaves when it comes to a combination of points cost and Ld for steadfast? I can't really think of any but then i've not been playing a vast number of games in 8th (and most of them have been against skaven).

If it is just slaves why not just go back to the mainstay rule and say that you can only have as many slave models as you have clanrats?

Flame On Forum

Poll

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Grotsmeg wrote:

jimbo wrote:

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Grotsmeg wrote:

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Re: BotCH wfb

mike wrote:

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Re: BotCH wfb

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Re: BotCH wfb

Re: BotCH wfb

Re: BotCH wfb

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Re: BotCH wfb

Re: BotCH wfb

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Re: BotCH wfb

skcuzzlebumm wrote:

mike wrote:

Re: BotCH wfb

Re: BotCH wfb

Re: BotCH wfb

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