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Nethrag

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Ok - there are lots of tournaments that are attempting to re-write some of the wfb core rules. I'm not simply talking about comp here.

Some just make minor changes to the magic phase (things like can only USE 12 dice per magic phase and the top level spells can only be cast successfully once a game etc.)

Others make more changes (Disruption removes steadfast etc)

Others have made LOTS of changes so the game plays more like 7th ed.

I am happy to do whatever the majority of people would like.

Discuss

Grotsmeg

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Im not a fan of changing the rules for a tournament but I understand the need fr comp still. What I wouldnt want to do is go back to 7th ed rules that's just not the way forward IMHO.
But I havent played enough 8th ed to have a true picture

Ironbark

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Voted for option 3, the comp changes id like to see are:-

Magic
- Top level spells from the BRB and spells like the 13th spell, Infernal gateway etc only successfully cast once per game.
- No items that play with mistcasts i.e puppet, cupped hands. Items that negate your 1st miscast are fine imo.
- Characters get a LoS from spells such as Dwellers.
- No chuffing Power scroll.

Unit composition
- Change the rules re location of command models in a unit so that characters namely BSB's and Wizard lords cannot hide in the second rank.

- Allow characters on a mosterous cav mount a LoS when in a unit of normal cav.(ie Khorne exalted on Jugger) This one is more of a bug bear than fixing broken rules. The Lord on Jugger model is awesome and its a shame people dont use it amymore.

Warmachines

Warmachines are fine without restrictions as they are a decent answer to huge horde formations. If we restrict the no of warmachines this year then we should also look at the size of infantry units people take.

Steadfast and Free reforms

I would change one or the other but not both. We could either -

Have steadfast broken by disruption or stop units reforming after winning a combat. Basically I feel clever positioning is not rewarded anymore and the game suffers because of this.

True LoS

Can't stand TLoS. Either go back to 7th Ed rules or make Warmachines have to guess ranges.

This is by no means an exhaustive list and I will add more as and when.

Jeridian

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Bare in mind I'll be with Epic at BotCh so my advice isn't going to affect me.

I despised 7th Ed, and have found 8th Ed great fun.

That said no ruleset is perfect. I'd accept small changes- namely the uber-spells that destroy a model with no save allowed. I'd allow Ward saves.

If you want more radical change I'd drop the True LOS rules in place of abstract- i.e. shooting through any unit to another causes -2 to hit modifier (no fiddly checking to see if I can see through ten armpits), forests cause a -1 to hit regardless of where the tree models end up. Hills block LoS up to 6", not the measly 1-2" of game-play hills.

A side suggestion is to ensure the Warhammer boards have considerable LoS blocking terrain like hills and buildings. Much like 40k, it lives or dies on the amount of LoS blocking terrain to make movement tactical. Without it, it's a turkey shoot.

Worst case for me would be adding a ton of rules to make it 7th Ed, in that case make it a 7th Ed tournament...

jimbo

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IMO there is not much comp needed in 8th, you just need to do things like cap unit size (30 models at most IMO) to stop people rolling out death stars, spells like dwellers only do a wound to charcters, no double hydra (most things with the large target rule)

also have you any idea on what point sizes we will be using as with the percent breakdown will make building on top of list hard

skcuzzlebumm

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jimbo wrote:
also have you any idea on what point sizes we will be using as with the percent breakdown will make building on top of list hard

Its not that hard providing you make sure the points you set are dividable by 4.

i.e 1600 - 2,000 - 2,400

Easy

gillus

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I love heavy comp for tournaments as it levels the playing field for those of us who have older or less "leet" army books....... Else I'll just put the bulk of my army in one massive unit and sit it in a folding fortress and give 6 people a real crappy game but I stand a chance of not getting nuked by magic/shooting.

Needless to say i'm not enjoying 8th at the mo and will be playing 40k lol

illusionarypresence

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i'm with adam on this.

comp uber death spells, get rid of tue LOS - although I would replace with the tiered system (level 1,2,3 etc)

I like letting disruption break steadfast, rewards good movement, which we dont do enough at present.

definately ban miscast items and stupid power scroll.

max unit sizes, esp for slaves

zelophahad

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I love this ed of WFB and was planning to play WFB at BotCh this year. But I'm having enough trouble remembering all the rules changes. If we go for any major rule amendments (apart from comp.) I'll be on the 40K tables.

Grotsmeg

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Agreed ZP i think its a little too early for rule changes, lets use comp to tone down the cheese.

walkingginger

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having played at a couple of non comped wvents i feel some is needed. However not much and different to 7th. The main concern I have is for the points denial lists which are reliant on large units of units (paticularly VC and daemons) which are very hard to get much points out of and are not much fun to play against. Perhaps a points limit for any unit may be a good starting point.

Grotsmeg

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I agree with points capping units allows fr big units of goblins but not big units of chaos warriors
Also agree with Adam and Ian let's have some skill left in the game

Lovechunks

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Ok - there are lots of tournaments that are attempting to re-write some of the wfb core rules. I'm not simply talking about comp here.

Comp is a given, I'm talking about the rules of the game. I'll be putting something together in the next week and post it up for perusal.

Nethrag

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Ok - there are lots of tournaments that are attempting to re-write some of the wfb core rules. I'm not simply talking about comp here.

Comp is a given, I'm talking about the rules of the game. I'll be putting something together in the next week and post it up for perusal.

Was logged in as sean......the above is me!

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Last edited by Nethrag (2011-01-23 11:43:54)

Ironbark

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Grotsmeg wrote:
I agree with points capping units allows fr big units of goblins but not big units of chaos warriors
Also agree with Adam and Ian let's have some skill left in the game

But it does allow for units of 50 LD 10 stubborn skaven slaves.

Nethrag

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This is taken from the rule pack I'm writing - would really appreciate peoples thoughts and suggestions (not that I'm promising to take heed mind lol) - especially from you Phil as I don't want to put you (or the peoples opinions who you represent - no pressure now lol) off.

Here it is.

General rules:
We are going to play 8th ed largely unchanged, however there are a few minor tweaks which we hope will make the weekend a more enjoyable experience for everybody.

1) The power scroll and the folding fortress are banned....shame on you for even thinking of taking them!
2) The maximum starting unit size for troops costing 6 points or less is 40, the maximum starting unit size for all other troops is 30 (or lower if the unit specific rules in the army book indicate). am thinking about letting TK skellies go to 40 too even though theyre 8 points - any other armies have a major problem here?
3) Any item which effects the result of a wizard miscasting a spell (e.g. either alters the roll on the table/negates the miscast/bounces the miscast etc.) is banned. Items which make miscasts less likely/more likely are allowed (i.e. re-rolling power dice/ring of hotek etc.)
4) The following spells may only be successfully cast by each side once per game: Transformation of Kadon, Final transmutation, The dwellers below, “High level” Comet of casandora, pit of shades, the purple sun of xereus, black horror, curse of the horned rat, infernal gateway, waaagh, bolt of change, plague wind. Items/spells which allow you to cast another wizards spells etc. may not circumvent this rule.any spells that I've missed or you feel should be removed from here - wasn't sure about high magic
5) You may only use 12 power dice or dispel dice per turn.
6) Line of Sight. To try and make things run a bit more smoothly and to allow converted models will be using a virtual line of sight system. This works as follows:

Virtual Line of Sight

Size chart:

Virtual Size Unit type
0 Swarms - models of this size never block line of sight or give cover.
1 Infantry, War Beasts, War Machines
2 Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts, Chariots, Unique without the Large Target rule
3 Monsters, all Large Targets

Line of sight is always checked virtually, drawn "base to base". Models see in their front 1/4 zone. For a model to have its line of sight blocked, the model/terrain piece in the way must be equal to or larger than both:
i) the model whose line of sight we are checking and
ii) its target.

Terrain
Hills are size two for each level (so a 3-step hill is size 6) and block sight / give hard cover just like models of that size. Models standing on hills add the hill size to their own size. Buildings and large rocks always block line of sight completely. Forests/Ruins do not block line of sight, but soft/hard cover applies to all shots fired through or into (but not out of) them. Units standing behind obstacles gain soft (wood) or hard (stone) cover as per the rulebook.

Cover from intervening units/terrain
Cover is granted when at least 50% of models in target unit are fully or partially obscured by other units/terrain from the shooting model (base to base). A unit/terrain piece which is 2 or more points smaller than either the target unit or the shooting model cannot grant cover.

Skirmishers
Skirmishers never block LoS, and are seen/can see in accordance with their size on the chart, but provide cover as per the above rules. The gap between skirmishers is treated as part of the unit when determining if skirmishers give cover to something behind them. Skirmishers formed up for combat block Line of Sight like normal units.

-------------------------------------------------
Forgot to add these two
added these and renumbered

5) Characters receive a look out sir roll from any spell which targets every model in the unit as long as the unit fulfils the normal criteria for providing a look out sir roll (enough models of the same type etc.)

7) All characters (except those with specific unit rules) must be placed in the front rank of their units displacing command groups to the back unless the entire front rank is taken up with characters (in which case the remaining characters may be placed in the second rank as normal). Displaced standard bearers and musicians have their effect from the second rank.

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Nethrag (2011-02-02 22:55:16)

read

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not a fan mate the power scroll works once if your lucky and usually takes a fair amount of your points with it , the big spells, if you don't want your army to die from one spell don't put all your eggs in one basket, (36 phoenix guard some archers and eagles is not really an army guys)and certainly don't think transformation of kadon is that much of a threat it removes a wizard and his magic items from the board
Virtual line of sight sounds spot on, oh and if anyone can find the words "true line of sight" in the warhammer rulebook i'll buy you a pint.
and as for comp and old armies i play brets as most know and i'm doing fine, i've seen nasty tomb king armies (the trick is to go bound item heavy) treekin are just unpleasant and ogres are definitely holding there own

i don't know about the tower but it seems a lot of points for a tower i understand fantastic if you've got a cheap no use lord choice but thats a rare commodity and it can only hold one unit so ignore it and kill everything else 100pts is a win afer all

i think on the whole though my problem is this with rulespacks of this nature is we're not actually playing 8th Ed Warhammer.
I know this will be taken in the spirit in which it is written so see you soon

jimbo

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i am guessing that the standerd botch force restictions will be in play so no double hydra and stuff, over all i like it but theres a few things i think could do with a change, if your giving look out sirs agaisnt dwellers and those other spells i think only letting them be cast once is a bit OTT (don't know what other people think on this) oh and skaven units realy need caping at 30 as 40 is too much on 2 point models

Grotsmeg

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jimbo wrote:
i am guessing that the standerd botch force restictions will be in play so no double hydra and stuff, over all i like it but theres a few things i think could do with a change, if your giving look out sirs agaisnt dwellers and those other spells i think only letting them be cast once is a bit OTT (don't know what other people think on this) oh and skaven units realy need caping at 30 as 40 is too much on 2 point models

Why dont we just cap all units to 30, job done then... saves the discussions on which units should be capped at what level

Waaag being limited to once a game seems a bit harsh, but as long as thats successfully cast then its less of an issue. Of course we will be on the new army book as well so it may well be different and not an issue either way.
Can we stop Jimbo's dirty high elf combo of being ethereal and counting all magic weapons as mundane, as i think its a bit of wrong un!. (Not blaming Jimbo for using it, just the designers for makeing the option do-able.)

jimbo

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while i have a bit mote time i don't think that warragh should be on the list of spells unless you will be putting a limit on van hals, for the reason of with the options vampires have the will get it through ever turn and i have seens van hals end games more ofton then i have seen any of the big spells,

maybe this year we can do comp for each race which should sve you a lot of time compaired to timmy comping, though its up to you

read

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got that used against me at warrington, my grail knight thought it was hilarious as he skewered him it was on blood and glory too

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Last edited by read (2011-02-03 11:29:22)

jimbo

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yeah.. that guy really doens't like Grial vow, Wight blades, Daemons, amulet of light and venom of the firefly frog. they make him cry

Benthomas

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Or Wood Elves

zelophahad

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Nethrag wrote:
...especially from you Phil as I don't want to put you (or the peoples opinions who you represent - no pressure now lol) off.

Thanks Jonny!

I don't feel I know enough to comment on specific in-game effects, so others will be better judges of which spells to list ot not etc. But from a general point of view, I'd prefer changes to be minimal and comp only so that it feels as much like 8th Ed as possible.

So:
1 & 3) It seems a shame to ban magic items and it opens up a can of worms. I'm not experienced enough to know why you've banned what you have, but as it's a comp issue I'm very happy to submit to the wisdom of others.
2) This sounds simple enough, especially if you follow Richard's advice and make 30 the top limit for all.
4) I think this is probably a good idea although it's obviously going to be controversial picking the list! It's kind-of comp so I'm happy.
5) It's simple enough, but as I've said I'm really not keen on changing the rules.
6) At first this looked complicated but on rereading I can see it isn't (maybe it could be worded more clearly?). I admit it sounds like a good idea in a tournament situation.
7) Is that a rules clarification? If so, great. If it's a change, I'd prefer not.

jimbo

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Phil 7 is a bit of both, Johny has changed the rule a little (and for the better IMO) because at the min there is a lot of abuse on where charcters sit in units an example is a skaven player takes a chief on a warlitter and joins it to a 5 wide clan rat unit, this then allows the player to place their BSB and Greyseer in the second rank where they can't be hit but still work as normal, this gives the player all the benifits of the BSB and seer yet none of/lowers the risks of taking them. (example bieng the bsb has a magic banner so no armour or ward)

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Last edited by jimbo (2011-02-03 15:28:58)

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