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Jamie

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There are players out there, me included, who will always stretch rules to get some dirty tricks into any army you take to a tournament. Yes I took fun elements to my army, a poorly equipped dragon (anyone ive spoken to properly knows i think dragons are mostly a waste of time in the current metagame), a lone combat unit of black guard who got massacred in 4 out of the 5 games they played in. But I also took some units that were a little bit on the cheddar side, 2 units of shades for example, Id have loved to take 3. Or tom who won WFB, I know for a fact if he could have used more units of terradons he would have.

I agree that a slight restriction on core units wouldnt go amiss, something quite general along the lines of, no more than X% of your core models may be equipped with a ranged weapon. I think most of our armies that were present would have satisfied a 50% margin to anyway, even my own dark elves were perfectly legal in this respect given the presence of a horde of harpies and some spearmen.

In terms of magic I dont believe any further restrictions are required in this aspect, the simple absence of deamon armies seemed to quell any worries people may have had in this respect. I might even suggest the actual banning of daemon armies from botch all together except that there are a few ways to create a balanced daemon army, its just that no one uses them.

Dr. Bizarre

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Excellent tournament boys and girls. Well done.

Ironbark

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Jamie wrote:
Or tom who won WFB, I know for a fact if he could have used more units of terradons he would have.

Indeed. Toms very lucky it was nethrag scrutinising army lists and not myself. It would be a cold day in hell that i let anyone bring 11 terradons.

Nethrag

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Yeah, I think that I might slightly restrict the level of shooting available in the initial game (knock on effect to subsequent lists then obviously).

I'll try to come up with enough scenarios that work so both players in a game can achieve them (as one of the points of them was that if you were losing a game you still had something to try and work for).

I'll re-word the standard capture one to include running down units that flee from a charge (or just drop that one).

re: victory points, as I said to a few people on the day - if we did it would involve coming up with some kind of sliding scale to make the victory points that you won in the smaller games have the same impact as the victory points you won in the larger games. To me that sounds quite complicated when we can just seperate people by sports and painting if it comes down to it (which I think was in the current rulepack wasn't it? - although it doesn't appear that was used to seperate justin and craig in the final standings? - neil?)).

May take out standards giving up victory points and table quarters from the smaller games.

I think I may even go no duplicate special or rare in the first game at least, maybe the first two. But then again I may not make that an actual rule and just timmy comp people from taking the particularly good double specials etc. Always hard not to penalise some nice themed lists with rules like that.

Edit: Tom was lucky that I'd played against 12 terradons (4 units of 3) and got really lucky and won a week or so before his list came in I think.

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Last edited by Nethrag (2009-06-29 12:15:38)

wildman

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First off, what a great weekend! It was my first tournement ever and I couldnt have asked for a better introduction. Thanks for all involved!

Things that I think where great was the idea of scaling armies up throughout the weekend. Each battle was different which gave alot of variety!

The location was great.... it took me all of..... 10 minutes to get to the gaming hall *hides*

I love the idea of no special/named characters - please please stick with that!

I loved the fact there was no demon players. Honestly I think next year you should say "no demon armies allowed". I dont think its possible to make a friend demon army without going out of your way trying to gimp yourself on purpose - which kinda spoils it for the demon player. We have no demons players this year so I can't see the loss of any potential players if a blanket rule of "no demons" is introduced.

I may be bais saying this (as I played Dwarfs) but I love the idea of Win-Draw-Lose scoring. With my dwarfs (and I reckon other armies too) as its so so very hard to get any high scoring results (SV/Mass), therefore maaking it very hard to compete. However, in this tournement even getting minor victories I can still enable weaker armies to have a better chance at winning. Please please, stick with this idea. I think the results show this is a good idea as some of the "weaker armies" have scored higher than expected (orgres, beasts etc..)

Things I think can be improved upon:

The issue about 1200 games and being heavy missile based is an interesting one. My army at this level was a mix of melee and shooting. However my opponent (Dark Elf) absolutely shot the shit out of me (even with High Toughness, Armour and a 5+ ward save). Now, this may have been pure luck on my part. What I think needs happened it a bit of analytical work from Jonny/Nethrag and the team. Get a copy of all the 1200 and see what the results are, if they are full of shooty list, then prehaps a limitation of missile troops needs to be introduced.

Miix up of armies you play against. I am not sure if it is possible but for the whole weekend I only played against 3 different armies. This being Warriors of Choas (twice) , High Elves and dark elves (3 times). You could argue that all I played was against elves and warriors. If I am honest, I was slightly dissapointed by this as I was really looking forward to play against a range of different armies. This may just be luck, but I was wondering if there was anyway to monitor this and react if someone (like myself) keeps playing against the same armies?

Finally, as a Dwarf player, I really stuggled with some of the objectives as some where movement based. I dont think this is a bad idea, per say, I just think that some of the other scenarios could be tweaked just a little bit. I dont think ever army should be able to complete an objective . I think they should be able to easily complete 3/4 but stuggle at 2/3. I think its something that needs looking at, but its only a minor issue. The scenarios wheren't game breaking but something else to aim for.

Thats it for me, I'll say it again, thanks for the fab weekend and I am very excited for the next years event and I will definately be signing up

Mark (aka - the only Dwarf player at the event!)

BiggsHancock

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wildman wrote:
I loved the fact there was no demon players. Honestly I think next year you should say "no demon armies allowed".

Miix up of armies you play against. I am not sure if it is possible but for the whole weekend I only played against 3 different armies. This being Warriors of Choas (twice) , High Elves and dark elves (3 times). You could argue that all I played was against elves and warriors. If I am honest, I was slightly dissapointed by this as I was really looking forward to play against a range of different armies. This may just be luck, but I was wondering if there was anyway to monitor this and react if someone (like myself) keeps playing against the same armies?

Banning all Daemon armies sounds very prescriptive. Don't get me wrong, I re-roll to hit against DoC at least as much as the next player, but a prohibition on Daemons is just admitting that collectively we are unable to either field a balanced DoC list or can't adapt our tactics to deal with the threat. For the sake of the GT and the general tournament environment I'm praying that something (Skaven or 8th Ed?) will happened in the next 12 months to nurf Daemons and stop them from dominating every event. Banning them altogether IMHO still sounds too reactionary and defeatist.

On the 40k tables I played five armies encased in Powered Armour. Considering that most players present selected lists with 3+ save this is not that surprising. Instead of asking the organisers to mix it up, I'll just amend my weapon options to deal with MEQs and then hope that I don't play Josh's Orks. It takes a disproportionate amount of effort to ensure that every player faces a variety of opponents. Combined with ensuring they don't play repeat or regular opponents this just makes the process of posting the results for the next round that much slower.

Did I mention that I had a great time and really enjoyed the event?

Biggs

skcuzzlebumm

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Ok taking onboard a lot of the feedback here.

I'm not going to answer every question directly now as i want to give everyone plenty of time to have a think etc.

Just want to touch on a couple of quick points though:

1. Random tables - the computer program we used automatically made it random tables. There is an option so that it tries to make sure you don't play on the same table twice but there is no option to set the tables to relate to someones standing. My original plan was random tables on Saturday and then the "correct" tables on Sunday but alas that was not to be.

2. The diversion of players as ppl have said comes down to Battle Points then Painting then Sportsman. Again the software though it said it would differentiate this in the end didn't.

These 2 issues are resultant of the program we used and it not doing certain things that it is meant to - apology's and we will strive to sort it for next year one way or another.

I obviously can't nor won't comment on WFB (as i have no real clue) but as for 40k keep it coming.

Whargoul

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Really good tourney. Can't really think of much that could have been done better.

Getting rid of the Aces special mission was definitely a good move. The specials had an appropriate weighting. Might be good to try a few new special missions next year

As for the 30-10-1 scoring, it felt very harsh at first in the close games but I think it's generally the way to go. It's quicker and puts non-massacre armies on an equal footing and some of the all or nothing feel is removed with the special missions. I'm not so sure it would be a good thing at the GT but it's right for Botch.

I liked the comp method, it's better than the previous ones.

So what specialist system is going to fail next year?

Jamie

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I disagree that banning daemons would signal a failure for us, when the fact of the matter is, it was GW who made the monumental cock-up of releasing the book in that state in the first place. I would view banning them as a possetive reaction from the players as a sign saying, 'enough is enough, stop being a bunch of lazy fuckers and write the bugger properly next time!'

jimbo

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i wasn't after spamming anything broken the point is that armies like beast have acess to as many chariots as they can fit in to a list where as most over armies were stuck at taking 2 i am not complaing about not being able to take the same rares/special i am just think that maybe somthing like you cant take 4 of the same core

Frog

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A+++ was really good! (its like giving feedback on ebay!)

my only suggestion would be have only 3 lists instead of 5! was quite complex! but then worked so well!

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Frog (2009-06-29 21:43:16)

wildman

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Other thing I forgot to add about the FAQ. I didnt come across anything particuallary nasty or "wrong" as a result of a lack of an faq. (but that have just been who I was up against). My thought was is something was being taken advantage off due to a rule loop, it could be vetted and asked to be resubmitted.

Ade

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We did think about knocking together a custom FAQ but we only started thinking about it a month before the event which was not enough time so we went back to the "official" ones.

Nethrag

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Yeah for next time I'll try and come up with something a little bit sooner and stick it out with the rules pack.
Though often people have disagreed with me about what needs changing...

Iron_Mantis

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for the special scenarios in 40k u could both win 3 outta 4 but if u both drew the terrain card then only one of u can win it. How about changing it to something like hold 25 percent of terrain rounding up.

Ironbark

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Nethrag wrote:
Yeah for next time I'll try and come up with something a little bit sooner and stick it out with the rules pack.
Though often people have disagreed with me about what needs changing...

Yeah thats always going to happen though.

Ultimately someone has to make the final decision on these things. So long as we have a discussion about it here way in advance there shouldnt be a problem.

Grotsmeg

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i cant believe we would do anything that bad that we would put people off playing.

WarbossKurgan

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I didn't go, so my feedback can only be reasons why!

Firstly: timing (nothing to do with Botch at all, it just fell on the wrong weekend!).
Secondly: 2 days. I know it was popular with those who went, but I just can't do 2 days in Nottingham!
Thirdly: (and this is a very minor one) Personally, I don't much like the restrictions placed on Rare and Special Choices, I can live with it but I'd rather not have too. Had I been going I would have said something before but as I knew I wasn't I thought it would be pretty pointless.

OneAngryScotty

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well i enjoyed the whole event and will be definitly going again next year, but i just have one little niggle Lysander should have been vetoed for the tournament as that model i think was my biggest bug-bearer of the event. Also many of my fellow players said the scoring was a little harsh to 30 for a win, 10 a draw, 1 for a lose

commie bob

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i will be there next year had 6 cool ass games, think i might swap to 40k to have some variation. i think the balance of how people in fantasy toned daown there tournament lists was quite different to 40k barring a few exceptions, there were still some lists that were right up in GT level and botch is a bit toned down from that. either i'm not that fussed, just a bigger challenge for the undead commie guard next year, with +500pts.

the main thing is that i got to see everyone that i hadn't seen in a a long time and had a laugh with everyone, enjoyed doing the quiz, and probably do it next year as people didn't seem to mind that much. anyways, loved it.

Dr. Bizarre

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

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I thought you were an excellent quizmaster Bobski.

Ade

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 67

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFactory::getDBO() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 24

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::_load() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/plugin/helper.php on line 41

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::clean() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/format.php on line 45

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Thanks for the feedback guys........

We do want to hear about any complaints you had no matter how small, as this will help next year be even better.

Grotsmeg

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFactory::getDBO() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 24

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only thing i didnt like was the sheet at the end didnt show which games you won and lost, a minor niggle though.

spider_mat

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::importPlugin() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/viewtopic.php on line 598

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 67

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 73

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFactory::getDBO() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 24

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i was wondering if anyone could link me in the right direction for the botch rule pack please

jimmy

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFactory::getDBO() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 24

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 26

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::getPlugin() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 39

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::_load() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/plugin/helper.php on line 41

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if you click on the BOTC link on the left hand side you'll get to the section

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