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Grotsmeg

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Was talking to Lee today and lee was talking about using hocklands vs hydra beasthandlers.

The hockland rule states that the firer can choose any model, even those not normally targetable.
The hydra rules states that anything that targets the handlers must be resolved against the hydra itself.

So these two rules seem to be in conflict, I would state, and i wish it wasnt the case that the hydra rule over rules the hockland rule.

What is other peoples interpretation.

mike

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the hydra rules only state that any hits that are randomized must all hit the hydra. this is most shooting. however things that allow specific targeting, such as the hockland, can target the handlers.

Grotsmeg

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Thats not how it reads in the army book when i read it last night. Also got caught out in combat in the GT last year.
of course, im happy for it to be that way as i think hydra's need something to make them less powerful.

Dasyatis

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Grotsmeg wrote:
The hockland rule states that the firer can choose any model, even those not normally targetable.
The hydra rules states that anything that targets the handlers must be resolved against the hydra itself.

From the wording you`ve put I`d say :-

1. The hochlands target the beastmasters.
2. Anything that targets the handlers hits the hydra so the shot is moved onto the hydra.

I`d want to see the exact wording before choosing a side for sure though.

mike

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the exact wording is

"... When hits would normally be randomised between the models of a unit, such as for shooting or a spell, such hits are not allocated randomly but instead are all resolved agaisnt the War Hydra..."

thus my point (which is right) stands. hockland does not randomise you pick your target, you can pick a handler.

Grotsmeg

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Good reasoning... discussion solved.

Nethrag

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yeah your initial premise was flawed rich, shoot away (just hope it doesn't get frenzied and get 8 attacks!)

Grotsmeg

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Lol my warped reasoning had something to do with playing a Druhii player at last years GT who basically wouldnt let me target his beastmasters even when i was in B2b and showed me the bit in the rulebook, which in an in game tourney situation (first game sunday!) is not the best time to have a discussion on interpretation of rules queries.
So for this weekend i want to be up to scratch so i can work my game plan out. (o.k. for my ogres this doesnt mean diddly for shooting!)
However
In combat do hydra beastmaster join the front rank in combat or do they hide at the back as was used by me.
Also if i then counter charge the flank do they then come in to combat. At the GT i was told i could do neither.
Which upon reading i think some parts were wrong i.e. when i flanked him.

But i am wondering about the charge from the front situation. (just want it straight in my head, 1 before tonights practise game were Lee is using my Dark Elves and more importantly 2. when i meet them at the GT, which is almost guaranteed.

mike

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in combat

the dark elf player can put the beastmasters whereeve the hell he wants. but he must maxmise models in combat, he cant hide them behind the hydra.

if you can attack the hydra you must attack the hydra. if you can only attack the handlers (ie your not in b2b with the hydra) you can attack the handlers.

if the hydra is already in combat and you counter charge the flank, the hydra counts as filling all the empty back ranks behind the handler, so chances are you will only be able to hit the hydra.

Grotsmeg

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mike wrote:
in combat
the dark elf player can put the beastmasters whereeve the hell he wants. but he must maxmise models in combat, he cant hide them behind the hydra.

I so got cheated! on this!

mike wrote:
if you can attack the hydra you must attack the hydra. if you can only attack the handlers (ie your not in b2b with the hydra) you can attack the handlers.

That fits with my understanding. Although wont work correctly if rule 1 is not applied.

If the hydra is already in combat and you counter charge the flank, the hydra counts as filling all the empty back ranks behind the handler, so chances are you will only be able to hit the hydra.

Ok so you have 3 units charging the hydra, 1 in the front and 1 on each flank.
nominate the front charging unit as the first charge so he has to rank up on the front.
so his beastmasters can either go one either side of the hydra or both on one side.
so in that scenario you must be able to get b2b with just the beastmasters although i appreciate with just 2 units he could potentially minimise the amount in combat.

jimbo

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just go 7 wide rich then you sould beable to get 2 attacks on the handlers

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Last edited by jimbo (2009-11-17 15:20:32)

Grotsmeg

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wot with ogres?

Frog

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they are magic handler's, they cant be hit ever!

I think anything that can pick out a model, ie the headbut spell in the orks book, should be able to hit the handlers.

Grotsmeg

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Agreed Frog based on whats cleared this up above Headbutt would do the job nicely.

Ogres however have nothing that can do it except in combat.
Ogre rear charge the unit with gnoblers and over run due to combat res and dead beastmasters job done!
Whats my prize if i pull that one off!

mike

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ok in the followin situation of one unit in front one in each side you have

1,2,3 = own models - units 1,2,3
H = hydra
B = beastmasters

2
1 HH 2
1 HH 2
1 HH 2
1BHHB2
1333333

the three models in red may attack the beastmasters - as that is all they are in b2b with. all other models must attack the hydra - as it counts as filling the gaps in the rear ranks thus puttin majority of flanking units in b2b with it.

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

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Last edited by mike (2009-11-17 23:57:12)

blessed knight

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would it not be?

2
1 HH 2
1 HH 2
1 HH 2
1BHHB2
1333333

mike

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no as the extra ones you've highlighted can and therefore must hit the hydra

Grotsmeg

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OK test my ogres vs Hydra's last night and with magic toughness or regen they are beatable by combat res, but the outnumber is crucial!
could only win combat by 1 or 2, but thats enough (leadership test on 6's if alone and beaten by 2, 5's with skullmantle, 7's if the lord is nearby!)

But it sooo easily could swing the other way!

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Hocklands Vs Hydra's

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Grotsmeg wrote:

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