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Jeridian

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With the much maligned ranked infantry coming up consistently as a complaint for 7th Ed I found the most irritating counter-intuitive part was that a ranked infantry unit almost never gets to attack back, making it's weapons set-up largely irrelevant and requiring it to rely solely on Static Combat Res which is pretty weak.
The rules bleet on about how soldiers step forward to take the place of their fallen comrades, hence why models are taken from the back of the unit....but for some bizarre reason these soldiers never think to actually attack the enemy in front of them. They just step over the fallen and present their necks for execution in some macabre procession.

It needs to be properly worded but:

-Models are still removed from the back of ranked infantry units. Models in base contact at their Initiative step with the enemy may still make attacks- representing the soldiers behind them moving forward and attacking.

Variations include:

-Ranked Infantry only.
-Must have 1 full rank.

For the vast majority of ranked infantry units this is an extra 5-6 Str 3 attacks a turn. Your looking at around 1 dead enemy every other turn, but what it does do is allow Ranked Infantry to actually cause damage- the mass of disciplined rank and file troops acting like a meat grinder on any charger, the front line being replace by the second and so on, killing the enemy. So that being in rank and file is an advantage for infantry (as it was before machine guns) rather than a downside.

It means the opponents MSU and cavalry units must worry about suffering 1-2 casualties when they charge, rather than none as is most often the case when no-one can strike back.

It also means other weapon options like Halberds actually have a use.

Of course, I can see it being very abusive for certain unit's. And I can see the supreme hypocrisy in some of them being Grave Guard and Dwarf troops.

What do you think? I personally find it absurd that any ranked infantry, the backbone of most armies medieval and Warhammer is the worst unit type and worse still despite their numbers, discipline and weaponry...they seem never to hurt the enemy, instead lining up to be systematically killed.

Davespaceman

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My unit of ranked Khorne warriors quite often get to attack back and kick a lot of arse.

My msu ogres would have even more trouble with this as I have only 1-2 units that can front charge anything substantial and have a decent chance.

How about just dropping the ability to target the unit champ so he'll get to attack back that's 2 attacks back or 5 for the khorne unit I mentioned

Grotsmeg

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How about Champs can only be targeted in challenges, so you can still use the champ to defend mages etc and yes some armies do get to attack back.
And it would as dave says really hurt ogres.

but for some bizarre reason these soldiers never think to actually attack the enemy in front of them

Maybe they are too busy making sure they step over the dead in front and not fall on their face to attack.
You ever been at the front row of a big gig, its a warzone out there.

Jeridian

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And how much do those Khorne Warriors cost? And would you say the majority of ranked infantry (include from my limited experience- Empire Swordsmen, Halberdiers, Militia, Greatswords, Skeleton Warriors, Dwarf Warriors, etc) are as worthwhile (relative to their cost)?
I'm talking horde infantry rather than elite infantry. I don't expect to be killing dozens a turn, but I'd prefer to actually roll at least some dice in combat considering I have 20 Swordsmen attacking you.

I don't see it hurting your Ogres much.

5 attacks, 3 hit, 1 wound, save?

It is a big rule change, an 8th Edition thing. As always some armies will suffer more than others as long as GW continues a legacy army book system. It's literally impossible to change any rules without this happening.

Dasyatis

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I'd be for letting them attack, but with a hefty penalty. Something like half Ws and S to represent death throes. Removing the rule entirely removes the entire point of I though.

Jeridian

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It wouldn't remove it entirely. You still go first with higher initiative, and if you have no enemy models in base contact at their initiative step, it's hard for them to swing back.

Against stuff like War Engine crews, skirmishers, single rank cavalry, single rank troops there is no difference.

If you add the qualifier that a unit must have at least one full rank at the start of the combat round then it prevents units benefiting for having a wider frontage (so having models no in base contact but still alive).

Is Ranked Infantry such a feared game-winner now?

Frog

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i dont think i ever worried about this problem, (i use dark elves) most my infantry get to strike back. - with characters, and assassins, champs, banners that help.
its about making the unit variable.

but the think you are paying for with block units, is the 3-5 combat res to start with!
1 banner,
1 warbanner,
3 ranks

If the unit is stubborn or high LD, then its become amazing. as you can whack it out there, take a charge, hold, and then counter charge.

Block infantry wins games. (the few i have won!)

jimbo

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frogs kinda of hit it on the head there, in fantasy it is nearly all about charging though there are ways to make the rank heavy armies work but you need throw away redirecting units to make it work pistoliers for example, so line up your charges/stop faster oppents charging you and empire have detachments which are pretty good when you have them like tommie's and only have them 3 wide and about 10 strong,

Grotsmeg

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got to admit my detachments always seem to fail to do anything on the counter.... except for occasionally removing the rank bonus's of the enemy so we dont lose by as much.

Jeridian

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i dont think i ever worried about this problem, (i use dark elves) most my infantry get to strike back. - with characters, and assassins, champs, banners that help.
its about making the unit variable.

Most ranked infantry don't have the option for Assassins, M 5 or Hatred.

My bet would be that these, along with adding Stubborn and high Ld characters that make your ranked infantry do well (in addition to your gameplay/movement of course)..IMO in spite of being ranked infantry, not because.

I'd argue the average block infantry can't get Hatred, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn or a high movement value.

I can't really buy the Detachment things either, it's almost never said by someone who has Empire and uses it, but by people who have played against Empire or heard about it. Detachments sound amazing in theory, in practice they are awful in most case.

When your sat back on a flank to counter-charge an enemy who attacks the main block, the fast Monsters and Cavalry have the speed and small frontage to sneak passed and attack the Detachment directly, even with 3xwide frontage.
If you move them out ahead to redirect charges where you want, they are easy meat for enemy shooting and magic missiles.

Finally, when they do get off that flank charge, they have the embarassing effect of giving the opponent even more kills to offset their flank bonus.
Most cases the enemy sheer damage output more than compensates for enemy benefit of SCR and flank counter-charges. After round 1, your SCR stays the same or lowers, whilst their killing just grinds on.

The only uses I have found is a Skirmishing Archer screen to block LOS versus heavy shooting opponents, US 5+ cheap throwaway units that can happily wander into a corner for 40pts and potentially capture a 100pt quarter, and in rare cases to flee through my army without causing a panic cascade.

I will happily accept the label of an inexperienced player with much to learn, but when I look at tournament army lists, when I play against other people in store, I don't see Ranked Infantry except as token units, and I don't see Ranked Infantry as the game winning units. So I suggest that it isn't just my inexperience that causes my Ranked Infantry to bomb when facing the inevitable Fear Causers, Uberlords and Monsters, it's certainly a big factor but there must be a hint of truth to the notion Ranked Infantry aren't that great, and perhaps to go further- are not on equal footing pt for pt with other stuff like Monsters, etc.

If Ranked Infantry are game winners that everyone takes loads of, then this rule suggestion is not needed.
If Ranked Infantry is actually a bit rubbish, this change seems minor, indeed I don't think it would bring them up to par, but it would be a logical start- getting to attack with that block of armed soldiers if someone attacks them and they have survivors seems intuitive.

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Last edited by Jeridian (2009-12-17 00:28:54)

Ferguson

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High elf ranked infantry in the shape of spearmen with a GW armed noble can do the job that infantry are supposed to do. ASF does help a great deal for this, and you do need the S6 noble to punch through any high T high AS models.

Nethrag

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Had forgotten about this thread.

Si, your right about a couple of things but are wrong about a few too.

Most ranked infantry don't have the option for Assassins, M 5 or Hatred.

I'd argue the average block infantry can't get Hatred, Immune to Psychology, Stubborn or a high movement value.

A lot of ranked infantry now adays in fact do have some kind of special rule to help them out. If we're defining "average" block infantry as "over half of that available over all armies", and not "empire infantry".

All High elves get ASF, All DE get hatred (and some ASF with banner), chaos infantry gets very good armour and 2S4, saurus get great psych and 2S4 with spears, dwarf infantry get good armour, toughness and leadership, undead infantry get so much stuff its still faster to write this sentance than write it all down even though its a really long sentance . Even my skaven have a "high movement value" at 5-6 etc.

Empire infantry however don't get buffs for the unit itself, they get the detachment rule.

I can't really buy the Detachment things either, it's almost never said by someone who has Empire and uses it, but by people who have played against Empire or heard about it. Detachments sound amazing in theory, in practice they are awful in most case.

This was the reason I bought and played with an empire army myself, to prove to myself that the detachment rules were as good as I thought they were in practice. I had a cult of ulric army, that basically meant I had no shooting (was allowed one cannon and no handgunners) and no stank so had to rely on swordmen blocks and detachments, one unit of "teutogen guard" (basically greatswords) and cav to be the heavy hitters. The advantge of that list was that I could get a lot of dispel dice through warrior priests (which by the way will give your own infantry units hatred, one of the rules you've valued above).

When your sat back on a flank to counter-charge an enemy who attacks the main block, the fast Monsters and Cavalry have the speed and small frontage to sneak passed and attack the Detachment directly, even with 3xwide frontage.
If you move them out ahead to redirect charges where you want, they are easy meat for enemy shooting and magic missiles.

If my opponents fast monster wants to charge my 40-50 point detachment then as long as I've positioned it properly then that's great news, 400 point unit kills 50 points then wastes another turn turning round afterwards, great!
Magic/shooting, you yourself have commented on how ineffective shooting can be (esp if the opponents army is deployed well) and although I generally applaud you for sticking to your guns about the fact that you don't like magic (and as a result don't have a great magic defence), it is something that your specific empire list has issues against, not all infantry armies and not even all empire armies. Lots have very solid magic defences so its not a weakness of the detachment rule, its a weakness of not taking many dispel dice/scrolls.

After round 1, your SCR stays the same or lowers, whilst their killing just grinds on.

There are not many units which are as good at killing in subsequent rounds as they are in the first, hatred only applys the first round, lance/flail bonuses don't apply etc. If your unit is still in combat with full ranks after the first round then often the charger is in trouble - there are obviously exceptions to this though, but not that wont also cost quite a bit more than your ranked infantry unit.

when I play against other people in store

My lizardmen was infantry based (3 large blocks of saurus) and so are my new skaven (5 x 20+ infantry blocks), my ogres obv weren't (although technically they're all infantry!) and my beastmen were more infantry based than most (i.e. I took combat herds which everyone else seems to hate).

However.......

I will happily accept the label of an inexperienced player with much to learn, but when I look at tournament army lists, when I play against other people in store, I don't see Ranked Infantry except as token units, and I don't see Ranked Infantry as the game winning units. So I suggest that it isn't just my inexperience that causes my Ranked Infantry to bomb when facing the inevitable Fear Causers, Uberlords and Monsters, it's certainly a big factor but there must be a hint of truth to the notion Ranked Infantry aren't that great, and perhaps to go further- are not on equal footing pt for pt with other stuff like Monsters, etc.

You are right that in terms of GT style army lists it is often not the ranked infantry that you see in lists and apart from a few exceptions (black guard for example) you rarely see a win being down to an infantry unit at tournaments. This is not because it is not possible, it is because it is harder to accomplish than the point and click of "uber lord of death who doesn't care if he gets rear charged". The way GW seem to be trying to tackle this at the moment is to reduce the points of all infantry across the board. This is fine but has a distinct flaw. It works by making it harder for the monster/whatever to make a decent impact on the game as it's hard for it to kill enough stuff for it to be game winning on its own (i.e. great, I've killed that skaven unit, how many points was it? Well, they were slaves so 42. or even if they were my blocks of clanrats that's still only 128). However it doesn't make the infantry any more able to actually deal with the large monster/whatever.

I however don't actually think that your idea would chnge that at all. The 4 swordsmen in base contact (so 5 attacks if champ isn't dead) are still not very likely to actually do any damage to the extremely tough monster. In fact it will actually come into play much more when infantry fight infantry, lots of elven infantry rely on striking first and killing their opponents before they get to attack as they have frankly rubbish defences. If this rule was in play you'd never see high elf infantry again.

What I DO think needs to be done is a change in how some of the equipment works. What I would do is this.

For races like lizardmen, spears stay as they are.

For races like empire and elves all spears get changed to pikes.
The pike rules in the DoW army are great and exactly what should happen when a large creature or cavalry charge a block of long shafted pointy sticks. The pike armed unit gets to ASF, fight in three ranks and get +1S against a charging cav or monster unit.
I think the introduction of pikes to the general warhammer rules would be a awesome thing.

illusionarypresence

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agreed on pikes, and the modelling options would be awesome!

Jeridian

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It's a slow burn thread this one.

High elf ranked infantry in the shape of spearmen with a GW armed noble can do the job that infantry are supposed to do. ASF does help a great deal for this, and you do need the S6 noble to punch through any high T high AS models.

ASF allows the ranked infantry to strike back, it's a similar effect to this rule.

A lot of ranked infantry now adays in fact do have some kind of special rule to help them out. If we're defining "average" block infantry as "over half of that available over all armies", and not "empire infantry".

All High elves get ASF, All DE get hatred (and some ASF with banner), chaos infantry gets very good armour and 2S4, saurus get great psych and 2S4 with spears, dwarf infantry get good armour, toughness and leadership, undead infantry get so much stuff its still faster to write this sentance than write it all down even though its a really long sentance . Even my skaven have a "high movement value" at 5-6 etc.

Empire infantry however don't get buffs for the unit itself, they get the detachment rule.

I bow to wider experience, the Ranked Infantry I know most about are Empire, VC and Dwarfs. With loose knowledge of Orcs.

On considering it, it seems that's the most plausible way Games Workshop would correct imbalance- nerfing stuff leaves a bad memory to the model owner, whilst boosting stuff is great for the model owner, and only moaned about by the model owners opponents who can either buy it or wait for their own boosts. I don't see Monsters, Daemons, etc being nerfed in 8th Ed, but rather Ranked Infantry boosted.

Problem is, it's an arms race.

On the detachments, I just can't see it. It requires a very good Empire player and an opponent who just ploughs into the Parent Unit. Even then, even with the counter-charge flankers, most enemy units have the punch to just butcher enough of the Parent Unit (and some flankers) to rubbish any bonus the Detachment achieved. They then roll over 2-3 units for the price of one charge.

If they plough through a Detachment turn 2 (plausible if your advancing, which you probably have to with an Empire horde, and/or the enemy is using chariots, flying monsters, etc), they now have something big, tough and ready to rear-charge your parent unit turn 4, whilst the rest of their army advances to the front. In any case it helpfully march blocks you, and may even cause Terror- which is bad news. It's also free to harass your rear support units (Cannons, etc).

Detachments can work, I suppose, but it requires so much skill and luck that it is rare. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else use Detachments for more than just cheap Archers, table grabbers, etc.

The Magic wasn't that scary against them, I found even my paultry 4 DD and 2 Scrolls turned most of the damage against most armies. Shooting, whilst relatively ineffective, only needs to kill 2-3 Detachment members to Panic them and reduce their use.

You make valid and reasonable points, but if detachments are good- why does no-one use them? We seem to agree:

You are right that in terms of GT style army lists it is often not the ranked infantry that you see in lists and apart from a few exceptions (black guard for example) you rarely see a win being down to an infantry unit at tournaments. This is not because it is not possible, it is because it is harder to accomplish than the point and click of "uber lord of death who doesn't care if he gets rear charged". The way GW seem to be trying to tackle this at the moment is to reduce the points of all infantry across the board. This is fine but has a distinct flaw. It works by making it harder for the monster/whatever to make a decent impact on the game as it's hard for it to kill enough stuff for it to be game winning on its own (i.e. great, I've killed that skaven unit, how many points was it? Well, they were slaves so 42. or even if they were my blocks of clanrats that's still only 128). However it doesn't make the infantry any more able to actually deal with the large monster/whatever.

An uber-monster/lord can easily crack a ranked infantry unit turn 2, get stuck in and do the same turn 4, if he's lucky a final kill turn 6 on average. He may get luckier with Overruns into other stuff, etc.
Your often looking at 400pts killed from 2-3 ranked infantry- throw the 100-300pts for Banners on to finish the joke.
It's also not much fun for me to deploy my army to realise my strategy should be to 'not die too fast'- that design concept has seen my Empire consigned to the shelf indefinitely (ironically my VC die too fast, but keep coming back).

Random tangent- Ranked Infantry seem to be the most common holders of Banners (for the vaunted SCR), the 100pts freebie is a bit harsh when they inevitably lose it. So essentially most ranked infantry should be considered worth 'pts cost + 100pts'. Presumably the bonsu +1 SCR is balanced by the risk of losing it for 100vps...but surely the actual pts cost is the balancer, i.e. you paid for it. I can see either banners coming free, or giving no bonus to the enemy.

I however don't actually think that your idea would chnge that at all. The 4 swordsmen in base contact (so 5 attacks if champ isn't dead) are still not very likely to actually do any damage to the extremely tough monster. In fact it will actually come into play much more when infantry fight infantry, lots of elven infantry rely on striking first and killing their opponents before they get to attack as they have frankly rubbish defences. If this rule was in play you'd never see high elf infantry again.

This rule alone won't make ranked infantry workable, but it's a start. At least I could roll some dice during the game, even if they are negligible.
Whenever a rule change is proposed, somebody in some Army Book is gonna get a kick in the balls- that's the inherent flaw of a Legacy Design system with books stretching back a decade.

The pike rules in the DoW army are great and exactly what should happen when a large creature or cavalry charge a block of long shafted pointy sticks. The pike armed unit gets to ASF, fight in three ranks and get +1S against a charging cav or monster unit.
I think the introduction of pikes to the general warhammer rules would be a awesome thing.

Bloody hell, that's harsh, hehe- I like it. We won't see it, of course- imagine the outcry and the wail of having to re-model entire armies, the death of the sword.

I guess we can talk about the different Weapon Types. Does HW & Shield bonus combined with Ranked Infantry never getting to roll dice back make all other combat weapons redundant for Ranked Infantry? Better to improve your Armour Save than improve the attacks you'll never get?

I apologise to those who enjoy the Monsterhammer aspect of the game, I do keep trying to turn it into Warhammer Ancients.

Nethrag

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An uber-monster/lord can easily crack a ranked infantry unit turn 2, get stuck in and do the same turn 4, if he's lucky a final kill turn 6 on average. He may get luckier with Overruns into other stuff, etc.
Your often looking at 400pts killed from 2-3 ranked infantry- throw the 100-300pts for Banners on to finish the joke.
It's also not much fun for me to deploy my army to realise my strategy should be to 'not die too fast'- that design concept has seen my Empire consigned to the shelf indefinitely (ironically my VC die too fast, but keep coming back).

Your being a little generous there I think. A lord on dragon cannot charge a infantry unit to the front. If that happens, the unit champion challanges, even if the dragon etc. hits and wounds with every attack, he can only inflict a maximum of 1+5 wounds for overkill. That's unlikely too (as you can generally only ever hit on 3's and 1's will always fail to wound so to do 6 wounds you'd have to have 10-11 attacks). Besides, even in that case you've got your five from static res and have can either have a warbanner, flanking detachment or BSB in the unit (or all 3!) meaning you win by musician, he gets 5 or less kills meaning you win combat or absolute worst case is you don't have any of those extra things and lose by one. You "should" pass that leadership test (Ld9 down to 8 with a reroll from your empire army for example). Then the big thing is stuck in combat with you, you've still got your full static res (as he's only killed a champion model) and you can now try and flank him etc.

The 100vp for banners I agree is something that I would be happy to see massively reduced in the new rules.

This rule alone won't make ranked infantry workable, but it's a start. At least I could roll some dice during the game, even if they are negligible.
Whenever a rule change is proposed, somebody in some Army Book is gonna get a kick in the balls- that's the inherent flaw of a Legacy Design system with books stretching back a decade.

Yup, always a problem, though like I said, I don't really see the point in the rule if all your doing is rolling some dice that are highly unlikely to matter. The hand weapon and shield combo for the lower end cheap ranked infantry (like the empire stuff) is what is always taken, that because your right, they either die before they get to swing back because they have no armour or even if they get to charge or something the low number of attacks or hitting on 4's mean it doesn't do enough.

Better to improve your Armour Save than improve the attacks you'll never get?

That's exactly it.
Other infantry like chaos warriors, swordsmasters, saurus etc do take other weapon choices as they have the weapon skill/number of attacks etc to make them worthwhile. My skaven though like your empire are all about the 4+ armour save from hand weapon and shield.

Glad you like the pike rules
I'm hopeful they'll see what's going on and come to the same conclusion - I'm an optimist

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