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Nethrag

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Ok, I've played one game with the new book so far. Got a win vs lizards at 2250 - thanks Ben (no idea why you kept those two stegadons behind the skinks after the skinks held vs my ghorgon - if you'd have just moved 6' back I couldn't have possibly pursued far enough to hit them?)

These are all 2k lists though so it's even harder to get any of the big things in to try them out.

The beastmen army to me has got worse than it was before. My opinion of this was not in any way changed after my first game with them this edition. The removal of anything that can approach the enemy through difficult terrain and pose a combat threat (centigor or herds) is the biggest nerf the army has taken imo. Anyway, whilst designing the list it was clear to me that there was no individual thing in the army book (with the potential exception of the ghorgon) that is particularly hard to take out/kill. And spending more points on attempting to protect anything is basically a futile exercise - even more so than before with the removal of combat herds (that can hide until necessary) from the new book.

Therefore the overall principle to this list design was "a beastmen list should pose as many credible threats as possible, as cheaply as possible" or "throw enough ~@!* at a wall.....".

Characters: Although both a beastlord and a doombull are individually decent characters, there is (imo) no decent place to put them. And for the points they cost they cannot be protected sufficiently. Therefore in all of my lists I have foregone taking a lord at all. Initially I wanted a great bray, a bray and 2 gorebull - this proved far too expensive to justify (1k in characters, no thanks).

The magic phase: A beastman army needs a general that provides a Ld boost even more so that previously, with a general leadership reduction in the army or the introduction of even more psych susceptible troops (razorgor Ld6) combined with the removal of the marks (khorne was a good way of psych protection previously) I needed at least a wargors Ld8. If I went up to 2250 I would strongly consider upgrading this guy to a lord for the Ld9 - potentially with the hunters spear.
Again there is no "good" unit to put the wargor in so he gets a chariot to ride around in. I also wanted to try out the mino hero, with only 2 character slots left that meant magic offence was out of the question so i concentrated on defence.

I also want to try out the scouting chariot idea to see if it works at all, getting to set up a rank breaking chariot on the flank could be extremely useful - though I have a feeling that it's going to be hard to pull off without actually deploying "in" the terrain and killing my own chariot.

This led to my first list - this is imo the weakest of the three, but it'll let me try out some things (I'll change around the Ghorgon for the other two at some point....well may not bother with the cygor) before I probably settle on one of the other two.

Wargor, Chariot, SoM, Enchanted Shield, HA
(mainly for Ld8, stays near the razorgor - potential for swapping out enchanted shield for blackened plate depending on how often he gets shot at by flaming warmachines)

Gorebull, BSB, Gnarled Hide, Ramhorn helm, HA, Sh, Gw
+ Gouge tusks as had points remaining.
(2+ armour whilst using GW, 0+ armour with hand weapon and shield, gets to make an attack at base strength if armour passed)

Bray shaman, 2 x scrolls
(Hides)
Bray shaman, Chariot, Skin of man, scroll
(Scouts - use this scroll first)

Core
5 ungor, Mu
5 ungor, Mu
5 ungor, Mu
5 ungor

5 Hounds

Chariot
Chariot (these two in addition to those being ridden on by the characters)

Special
3 Minos, add h w
3 Minos, GW
5 centigor, Mu
5 centigor, Mu

Rare
Ghorgon
(imo the ghorgon is the best of the three rares - it gives a stable point which the enemy cannot break through and gives your other stuff a centre to work around and get flank charges - the flying rank breaker jabber I'll be trying out too though)

The above I expect to be a reasonably standard new beastman list, with some people dropping a unit to upgrade the wargor to a beastlord, either this or just spamming chariots..... It certainly didn't inspire me much though.

Lists two and three seemed more interesting to me, though sadly the big guys gone.

List 2
Bray 2 x scroll
Bray 2 x scroll

Wargor, Chariot, SoM, En Sh, HA
Gorebull, BSB, Gnarled Hide, Ramhorn helm, HA, Sh, GW, Gougetusks

5 centigor + Ghorros, St, Mu
5 centigor, Mu
5 centigor, Mu
Chariot
Chariot
Chariot
5 ungor
5 ungor
5 Hounds

3 Minos, add, h w
2 razorgor
2 razorgor

List 3
Bray 2 x scroll
Wargor, Chariot, SoM, En Sh, HA
Gorebull, BSB, Gnarled Hide, Ramhorn helm, HA, Sh, GW,

5 centigor + Ghorros, St, Mu
5 centigor, Mu
5 centigor, Mu
Chariot
Chariot
Chariot
5 ungor
5 ungor
5 ungor
5 ungor

3 Minos, add, h w
2 razorgor
2 razorgor
2 razorgor

This list is the basis of what I used against the lizards yesterday (though that list also included a Ghorgon as it was 2250 [lost a unit of ungor and replaced another with a hound unit]), it works soley on the principle of "they can't kill it all". Panic is a big issue as is magic defence and I have to stick the gorebull in a centigor unit when facing warmachines but its as close as I've come to happy with any list I've written in the last month of trying.

Am also considering dropping both the gorebull and the wargor and adding a doombull general to see how many points that can free up whilst keeping the Ld 8. Though I generally like splitting the threats between gorebull and wargor.

Grotsmeg

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Nice to see a total absence of gors and bestigors, do these units now suck that much?

Going to be interesting to see what list i can come up with but your views are not really making me love the new beasts. So not good.

Nethrag

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Yeah, I can't really seem to find a solid enough reason to take them.

Mike's written a list with 8 units of them or something, so he can ambush 4. Just done some basic maths and that's still only slightly under a 50% chance of none of them turning up behind the enemy. (0.86 x 0.86 x 0.86 x 0.86), not exactly stella for the huge points investment (a single unit of 20 gor costs 160 without command so 185ish with?).

Bestigor are potentially useful for a bodyguard unit for a doombull so he gets a look out sir roll. They're still not good at that and are very expensive and now take up a special slot. The ones I got out of the attic in preperation for this book will likely just go straight back up there.

Benthomas

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Nethrag wrote:
Ok, I've played one game with the new book so far. Got a win vs lizards at 2250 - thanks Ben (no idea why you kept those two stegadons behind the skinks after the skinks held vs my ghorgon - if you'd have just moved 6' back I couldn't have possibly pursued far enough to hit them?)

Whoops, didn't realise the Ghorgon had that only pursue D6 rule. We live and learn

Hugh

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I bought the book on Saturday and am thinking of something along the lines of,
Stubborn doombull
Bolt thrower wargor bsb in razorgor chariot
Shaman in razorgor chariot

Couple units of 10 gor
2-3 units 5 ungor archers
chariot

2 pumbas
12 bestigor (like you said Jonny, potential 'look out sir' hiding place)
3-4 minos with shields (to absorb damage while the doombull dishes it out)
5-6 centigor

Cygor

The list has a couple of artillery-like options and a rock hard unit in the form of the doombull's unit. Having had a think, the bestigor with hatred will get almost as many hits as khorngor so they're not completely useless. Ld is pants across the board though (so those bestigor will be lucky to make it to combat...) and I'll really miss being able to screen the whole army with herds.

Surprised you think the cygor is not worth trying Jonny? I'm not saying it's particularly good, just that it's on the same 'meh' level as the other two at least
The jabberwocky not working against ITP makes it fairly pointless although having a flying large target rank breaker that doesn't require an expensive lord to sit on top is nice I guess. The gorgon is powerful in combat but will struggle to get there in many games whereas the cygor can hang back and throw rocks in those situations.

Nethrag

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The razorgor chariots for mounts are a possibility, causing fear gives some psych protection. I'm no convinced about 145 points for something that gets auto destroyed by S7 though.

The stubborn doombull eh...yeah he'll be ok I'm sure. Not a huge fan personally though.
Hunters spear is def worth a go I think, shame everyones BS is so low. Still, as long as it works as a thrown weapon come the FAQ (which it should but you can never tell).
It's annoying me that the only place to put the beast characters is in chariots

I'm gonna stick my gorebull in the centigor if I need a look out sir roll I think.

To me the cygor is trying to do too many things and doesn't do any of them particularly well.

It's WS2 means its gonna hit on 5's vs a fair few things and I don't thnk it's going to be particularly good in combat with only T5 and 5 wounds no armour.
It's anti magic thing is really pretty poor when you think of all the things that have to happen to get it to work.
That leaves you with a stone thrower that can move and shoot. Godd certainly, but not worth anything close to 275 points.

The jabber I'm just simply looking at as a rank breaking flyer - anything the 12" aura thing does is gravy. Not assively convinced again due to the T5 5W and no save for 275 points.

The ghorgon I think is prob the best mainly thanks to its T6 and Ld10 stubborn. Though again nothing particularly spectacular there either.

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Nethrag wrote:

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