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So been speaking with Gill about what we feel are the 'big' problems with 8th Ed and how to tweak them slightly.

The way we see it the 3 big issues are; Magic being to OTT, Steadfast nullifying the viability of Elite armies, and Cav generally being shit these days.

As a result just came up with a few quick fixes, thought to stick them down here to see what others think and also just to have them written down somewhere.

MAGIC RES

Magic Res X = the number of free bonus dispel dice that may be used to boost any normal attempts to dispel a spell that is directed at said model/unit.

- Yes just like 7th Ed. But this way the escalation in he who throws the most dice into magic wins is mitigated by magic res actually having a function, especially against the big 'remove you without a save' spells.

POWER SCROLL

No power scroll - delete it from your rule and army books.

- Easy and pretty damn common at tournaments these days as it can be used to wipe out armies in a single turn.

STEADFAST

Units loose their steadfast bonus if charged in the side or rear by the following:
8 or more Infantry
4 or more Cavalry
2 or more Monstrous Infantry or Monstrous Cavalry
1 or more Chariots or Monsters

- Nice simple mechanic that helps mitigate steadfast. Also this gives an important use to cavalry who can be used to quickly move up a flank and then shatter units in the flank.... just like cavalry did in the real world.

TERRAIN

Terrain is only magical/special on a roll of a 6. After that roll again on the chart in the WFB rule book.

- Sorry it really annoys me that only 1in6 trees in the Warhammer world don't want to kill you or something.

BUILDINGS

All buildings are impassable and cannot be entered. Remove/delete Folding Fortress from the common magic items list. In the watch tower scenario replace the watch tower with a hill or suitable ruin.

- the new building rules can and do really cock up the game in so many ways. And personally it just gets even more stupid in the Watchtower scenario.

So anyway these are just my ideas on what little tweaks could be done to help improve the big problems with the game, whilst at the same time not trying to totally re-write vast tracts of the rules, or totalling nerfing whole areas of the game.

What do people think?

walkingginger

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I agree with a lot of the sentiments about terrain but your suggestions with regard to majic and steadfast is in danger of becoming 7.5. Steadfast at the moment is a touch powerful but it is what keeps large blocks of infantry in the game which i like to see. I would say just losing steadfast if disrupted would be a nice easy mechanic which would encourage a more manouvarable army and so potentially cav. If you go back to monsters removing steadfast then they would become all powerful, especally with the thunderstomp now increasing their damage potential.

Overall I like 8th though so not your target for this post.

Russ

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Ah Steadfast. As much as my Seekers would like to be able to break ranks again it was a little too easy. I really feel that you should be rewarded for outmanouvering the enemy but it can't be too easy so I just think that if you lose ranks then you lose steadfast too with possibly the caveat that the unit only loses steadfast if it's been engaged to 2 or more sides at once. 4 Cavalry doesn't shatter ranks :p

As for magic I think magic res should just work against everything as a saving throw. You have magic res 3 and some sneaky skaven casts wither then even if you don't dispel then you get a 4+ save to negate the effects. Oh and it works against all spells. Possibly even those cast with IF. Would go a long way to mitigating some of the horribleness of many of the spells.

As for the rest well I never use the magic scenery anyway as I think it's too much hassle but I don't mind the building rules at all. I think it can just be a pain if you have a lot of buildings or if they're the objective of the battle but these things can be solved by scenarios and how you choose your terrain anyway.

Apart from that I think characters are a little too easy to kill in CC and I think the front rank should be the only one that can target it's attacks.

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Last edited by Russ (2011-05-17 22:17:15)

Grotsmeg

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I agree with Russ and Ginger, but nothing here fixes cavalry, I wonder if the answer might be in 40k and to give ridden units +1 toughness as well as an improved save.

Russ

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I actually believe the problem with cavalry isn't so much a problem with cavalry but a problem with the lance (or spear). Units that don't rely on the charge such as chaos knights, questing knights, seekers, aren't really much different from in 7th. They can't break infantry so fast anymore but they don't really care as they can just sit there and grind it out. Cav that uses lances though used to need to break the enemy or they were knackered. Speaking from a HE point of view Dragon Princes can still partially do that job so still get taken but Silver Helms (especially for the cost) can't.

Hopefully most other cav that relies on charging will get a cost reduction like boarboyz have. I'd also consider something like giving lances devastating charge but that might be a little too much. Or a more radical option, cav that charges doesn't stay in combat but charges through units (causing dangerous terrain to both perhaps) and goes out the other side as if a fleeing unit. Again possibly too powerful though.

Jeridian

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I was worried this would be a "I liked 7th Ed, here are some rules to make 8th Ed really 7th Ed", but overall they look okay.

I absolutely agree about the Magic Terrain, the ratio of normal to magic terrain is ridiculous- no-one in the Warhammer world would survive more than a few minutes before being eaten by trees.
As characterful as Magic Terrain can be the majority is detrimental to your troops, having to roll if I enter it just means I won't bother entering it.

I'm on the fence about Buildings- I'm fine with the building rules, if a little fiddly, but in a lot of games I do ask to make them Impassable if there's a lot of them and/or they have fiddly roofs/inacessable interiors, etc. I've found 3-4 buildings is necessary now with true LOS to make the game tactical (in addition to some forest, hills, etc).

I'm fine with Steadfast and all the other rules that make Infantry king. I love my infantry, and loathed the way cavalry could smash headlong through ranked, disciplined infantry without taking a scratch or breaking a sweat in 7th Ed.
Warhammer should be built around a few big infantry blocks, with cavalry not the centre-piece but a support element that chase down enemy war machines, characters, straggler units, other cavalry.

One you haven't mentioned and does put me off the game is it's still based on Victory Points rather than Missions. Around turn 3 or 4 you can mentally guesstimate the VP's of each side and in many cases know who's won- the remaining turns are just the winner gleefully rolling dice with the loser packing models away with disinterest.

However, the Watchtower shows how difficult it is to write a objective-based mission for Fantasy rules that doesn't suck.

WarbossKurgan

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I really don't have enough experience with 8th ed yet to give a valid opinion but I'm definitely in the "less is more" camp: The fewer changes to the rules needed the better, otherwise playing anyone who hasn't read the "house rules" gets very complicated!

I agree with Si's comments - Steadfast is fine, and I certainly don't like the idea of micro-cavalry units negating it. I really don't think 4 men on horses could dent the nerve of 30+ ranked-up infantry!

I do like the suggestion for Magic Resistance and the Power Scroll. A lot. I can see that going down well with most people.

Same goes for the "magic trees".

Buildings I'm conflicted on. I like the idea of the building rules but I understand that they could slow a game down and tip the balance too much. I haven't played enough to judge though.

Dasyatis

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Out of interest, what would peoples opinions be on just getting rid of magic? Just dump the entire phase and make it all about the other phases ...

Does anybody really *like* the magic?

WarbossKurgan

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Really? Remove magic from a Fantasy game?

I'd have to vote against that I'm afraid (and I'm sure a few armies would be completely hamstrung by that anyway).

Grotsmeg

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I agree its a magical world, keep it magical. and I like russ's idea about cavalry units charging through combat. Although that could mean if they hit a stacked block of multiple units they could end up going through something mad like 5 units on the bounce and any survivors appearing on the other side 40" away.

and also building i have mixed feelings on, except for rerolling wounds against units in buildings, i think thats just daft.

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Last edited by Grotsmeg (2011-05-19 11:20:41)

walkingginger

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A long time ago prob 5th or 6th ed we used to play occasionally with no magic, no maic items and no monsters. Made for quite a different gam which was very even. Problem is it really narrows down what armies to use.

jimbo

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i quite like 8th, it is a good game but there a few problems with it (and bits i hate like how common stubburn is for one)i like the magic though some spells are too powerfull i think some armys need magic more then they did last ed.also i really like the missions the one i dislike is battle for the pass!,i think the add a bit to the game and can help stop negitive play as you will have to build a list to work at all missions

things i would like to see happen are:
Cav to become a lot cheaper then it is now
the loss of steadfast if you get flanked
changeing steadfast rules so 5 wide stupied number deep units dont wreck the game
i agree with Skcuzz on the Magic res though it won't work against vortexs

Benthomas

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Rock, Paper, Scissors

You cut down Magic, then you need to cut down on deathstar units that magic is the answer to.
So you allow 5 man cavalry units to break them simply by manouvering into the flank (which is stupidly easy to do in 8th)
Then what do you do to stop small cavalry units wrecking 50 man units.
Does anyone else remember how silly 7th was towards the end...

I think 8th needs comping. Some really stupid things like Power Scrolls and spells that kill characters out of units are just too much. And my view on Okkams Mindrazor has been made pretty open.

But I dont tink we need wholesale changes. The new books are making MR more important by having their lores do damage rather than "characteristic check or die" spells.

We are only 2 books into the new edition and before we House Rule our way back to 7th we should (and I cannot believe I'm saying this) give GW time to show us where they're going with this.

As a sidenote: the current building rules are knackered... if something should be tweaked, they are it.

Nethrag

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I don't mind 8th, its a nice beer and pretzles game (though I've never eaten pretzels while playing warhammer of any edition so I've not idea why we use that phrase lol).

It's not as tactical a game as 7th was (I'm not saying 8th has none, but its not about them as much).

Infantry getting a much needed boost is great - though I'd like to see steadfast disappear if the unit gets disrupted (need 2 ranks to do that currently so I think that'd be fine as you still couldn't chuck 5 dogs into someones flank to manage it).

Magic is far too powerful imo but I agree its needed when other people do stupid deathstar units (that's the victory point conditions fault as much as anything in the actual rules). Either go back to victory point table or have unit caps would sort that out - then you wouldn't need magic to be so powerful.

Battle for the pass scenario is fine if your playing on a single table with plenty of space around it, the problem is when its played in a cramped environment.

Building rules are as ever terrible, and basing a scenario around them was a bad idea (that scenario with an objective marker/hill instead I think is fine.)

I'd go along with the front rank being the only troops able to direct their attacks as like russ says most characters (esp hero level ones) against my bestigor horde die pretty sharpish.

Also agree that someone with Magic res in its current incarnation is about as magically resistant as my foot. Though I also think that the old rules would be too powerful in the current edition. I'd be much more tempted to say an MR2 unit gets 2 free dice to dispel any spells which are cast against it this magic phase. So 2 dice per phase (to be used whenever the controlling player wishes) rather than 2 dice every spell. (otherwise again it makes death star unit immune to the one thing that scares them)

Grotsmeg

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Nethrag wrote:
Infantry getting a much needed boost is great - though I'd like to see steadfast disappear if the unit gets disrupted (need 2 ranks to do that currently so I think that'd be fine as you still couldn't chuck 5 dogs into someones flank to manage it).

Agreed, i think this is the biggest problem with 8th ed.

WarbossKurgan

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Nethrag wrote:
I'd be much more tempted to say an MR2 unit gets 2 free dice to dispel any spells which are cast against it this magic phase. So 2 dice per phase (to be used whenever the controlling player wishes) rather than 2 dice every spell. (otherwise again it makes death star unit immune to the one thing that scares them)

I like that.

WarbossKurgan

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Thinking about magic though - is it possible that the "over-powered" spells are a concious design decision to put people off always fielding Death Star units? Eggs: baskets, etc!

Nethrag

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Not convinced GW thinks in that type of tournament play detail when designing its rules to be honest.

Russ

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Heh I think the the problem is they don't. It's very much a "hey these big spells will discourage deathstar units" GIANT FULL STOP.

Actually I think allowing disrupted to get rid of steadfast goes a long way to limiting them anyway. You have to protect your flanks with something approaching a reasonable unit instead of just not having to care. MSU suddenly becomes a much bigger threat.

You know the more I think about how i'd go about making soloutions to some of these issues the more I want unit strength back.

skcuzzlebumm

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The return of unit strength would make a lot of things easier that is for sure.

Am liking the discussion about this all though.

WarbossKurgan

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Nethrag wrote:
Not convinced GW thinks in that type of tournament play detail when designing its rules to be honest.

Russ wrote:
Heh I think the the problem is they don't. It's very much a "hey these big spells will discourage deathstar units" GIANT FULL STOP.

Yup. Probably too true!

Russ wrote:
Actually I think allowing disrupted to get rid of steadfast goes a long way to limiting them anyway. You have to protect your flanks with something approaching a reasonable unit instead of just not having to care. MSU suddenly becomes a much bigger threat.

That's such a simple change as well. It wouldn't take much to explain to a new opponent and most would agree with it.

zelophahad

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WarbossKurgan wrote:
Russ wrote:
Actually I think allowing disrupted to get rid of steadfast goes a long way to limiting them anyway. You have to protect your flanks with something approaching a reasonable unit instead of just not having to care. MSU suddenly becomes a much bigger threat.
That's such a simple change as well. It wouldn't take much to explain to a new opponent and most would agree with it.

I agree. House rule for the Mill?

WarbossKurgan

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Done!

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'Alternative 8th Ed'

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