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Frog

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i had lots of annoyances this campaign, because i was only able to be a casual gamer, only reaching half the number of games.

I found rules to complex:

Each location special rules.
Special Scenarios
Personal Army rules.
Special double points locations.
The four teams.
The whole base points system. got totally lost there. I go into a battle, i can win, but cant claim the location.
- of course i only found out about the rule after the game!

> with the base points thing, the defending war-band already has a much larger warband and so already has the advantage!
> I do like the fact larger war-bands cant challenge, but surely that defeats the object of being the biggest,
in real life you would flatten everyone else! that's why smaller warbands group up and help defend each other!

Ok so ive had my rant! lol but for the most part its been really good. I have really loved the games ive had. and getting involved.

Opening the mill every other thur night has been really good idea. Should i aim to open every week next campaign?
But i also plan to run lots more painting days! - like the one im running this Sunday!

Added 10.22.2009 11:17:48:
sorry may all seem to harsh. don't mean it sound bad... i really did enjoy the campaign!

just found it all a bit much. i like the simplicity of mordheim!

WarbossKurgan

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Frog wrote:
I do like the fact larger war-bands cant challenge, but surely that defeats the object of being the biggest,
in real life you would flatten everyone else! that's why smaller warbands group up and help defend each other!

That is the point! We don't want a single dominant warband crushing all before them!

If it's any help there won't be 4 factions in the next Mordheim campaign, as it won't be part of a larger Sartosa campaign.

WarbossKurgan

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At least this is all explained now....

zelophahad

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I've been doing some work this weekend on my new spreadsheet for next time, incorporating some of your comments.

In particular, I've tried to make things simpler in the after-battle determination of who controls territory. Here's the plan: rather than comparing warband rating after the post battle sequence, we'll compare what it was before the game. This will be coupled with a +/-10 point modifer (rather than +/-1) for each win/loss of the controlling player in the location. I think this should work well and mean that loosing in your own territory is much more likely to mean loosing control of it. I've made some other tweaks too and even added a new and very special location (...but you'll just have to wait and see!).

I've set the new spreadsheet up to cope with up to 12 warbands. There won't be factions, but everyone will get to choose (independently) two locations that will win them double pointsl. I'm also going to give advantages to players who did well in this campaign...

All this is of course assuming that you lot are happy for me to run the next Vercuso campaign...?

Dazza

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I propose that for the next campaign that Phil's warband rather than hiding up a very tall tower, should be played from a large, and importantly, a very deep hole.

spider_mat

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i think ur the purfect person to run the campagne phill

90% of the games happen wile your around and u seem to have it down to a fine art

Andy

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Good man, Phil. Sounds about right.

Although advantages for the winners? Perhaps I'm just being a sore loser, but I was never one to advoacate making good warbands even better, or give good players a leg up.

zelophahad

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Dazza wrote:
I propose that for the next campaign that Phil's warband rather than hiding up a very tall tower, should be played from a large, and importantly, a very deep hole.

I'm bringing my cave-orcs next time. Ugg.

Added 10.26.2009 22:14:52:

Andy wrote:
Good man, Phil. Sounds about right.

Although advantages for the winners? Perhaps I'm just being a sore loser, but I was never one to advoacate making good warbands even better, or give good players a leg up.

Don't panic Andy - it shouldn't be much of an advantage really - and if someone has a location everyone else wants...

Andy

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Okay, now that I've played a few more games I'll have a crack at giving some feedback. A lot of this may sound like whining, but I assure you it's not. If it does I apologise, winning at all costs isn't my agenda - these will mainly be issues of balance.

First off, and I think a lot of people agree, the Sailmaker's Guildhouse really does seem massively powerful. Having a bonus like that, especially in a long campaign, really does skew it a bit. Unless every player has it for equal amounts of games (which isn't really possible) then the controlling warband is going to skyrocket past everybody else. Leading warbands can get more experience than an underdog in some cases. It just seemed wildly better than every other location by leaps and bounds. To be honest, I think we should stay away from anything giving us extra experience, there are enough things like that in the game, but that might just be me.

Secondly, there is the amount of games being played. Admittedly this is more of a personal one. Looking at the amount of games that have been played by each player I can see it's quite close between everyone, eleven, twelve, thirteen being the normal amount. Except for Tim and I. I don't think people should cut down on their gaming, far from it, but I'm wondering if we can take steps to allow the less regular players to play too. I myself didn't play that many because for most of the days when gaming was available, I was working. I think Tim had a similar reason? I've had to schedule a Blood Bowl game once a week while this has been going on, but that was usually just one day a week. If, say, we were allowed to play games outside of the Mill, i.e Games Workshop, then I would have easily been able to get more games in when I had evenings off work, rather than sat at home because the Mill isn't available that day. I understand we can only have the venue on certain days, and it's an amazing oppurtunity that we're all very grateful for, but maybe outsourcing the campaign would open up a lot more gaming time for those with terrible working hours. As I said though, this is just a personal, selfish plea from me.

I don't think I need to go too much into balance issues regarding the different warbands. The proof was there for all to see - in long campaigns like this skaven really do become the dog's bollocks. Combined with the experience from the Sailmaker's Guildhouse it really did get a bit out of control. I very much enjoyed playing Mat, it was a lot of fun, but that warband was broken. When you get the charge on something with an ogre and a marksman who has buffed up combat stats, and you don't even get to attack back because you're striking last and get killed, something does seem a bit off. I think it really was the lighting reflexes skill that caused this. On other things, like humans, it doesn't really pose much of a problem, but on skaven, who have three heroes starting on I5 and everybody else on I4 it gets mad. With low toughness, even those beasts with seven attacks can be taken out if you get a decent charge on them, but if they strike in initiative order you don't stand a chance. Wow, I guess I did go into it a bit. Again, this isn't a dig at Mat, he's a great fellow, it's more to do with the game mechanics. Dare we go so far as to start outlawing warbands?

And one last thing: I think multiplayer games could be made a lot more action packed and faster if we made the boards smaller. Playing over eight board pieces resulted in the board effectively splitting into two - Dave, Mat, Tim and Viktor fighting at the top, and Adam, Darius and I moving up at the bottom (we'd formed an alliance, see). By the time we chose to end it we'd only played three turns each, and the Human Alliance didn't really have a chance to prove itself. I was thinking, for multiplayers of such scale in the future, we could condense the board to six, or maybe even four board pieces, depending on the amount of players.

But seeing as this is a feedback thread I really should say what was good about the campaign, but I'd be here all night. It was fantastic. Everybody was a joy to play, even if I didn't play everybody, and the locations really added a competetive edge to it. It gave us something to strive for. I'd like to say thanks to everybody, and an especially big thanks to Phil for running it. And I can't wait to open the dustbin tomorrow and drop my Marienburgers in it. Hail Sigmar is what I say, and cleanse the world with righteous fire.

And breathe.

zelophahad

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Thanks Andy, that's very helpful.

Don't worry about the Sailmakers' Guildhouse, the booze there will be considerably less potent in the next camapign!

Re. overpowered warbands, I do take you point, but please note that Matt hasn't finished the campaign in a particularly strong position...

Good point Re. multiplayer games - it's slightly tricky because shooty warbands will really suffer on a smaller board, but I guess I'm the only one who reall cares about that!

The Beanbag

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Well, I must say, for my first Mordheim campaign, I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Everyone is a pleasure to play, everyone brings something to the table
Phil - a consumate campaign organiser and knows what Mordheim is really about - fun warbands and games.
Saul - an unhealthy obsession with greenskins has led to a superlative collection of minis and a very orcy attitude to games!
Matt - fearless, enthusiastic, tactical. No beard (no really, he shaved it off) Needs a new warband challenge now
Andy - eccentric. A master of fluff, I know Andy from BB and he carries over his rich vein of self-awareness of his own tactical insouciance from the pitch to the pitched-street battles. Any campaign with Andy in is worth being involved in!
Dave - for an undead leader, his ambition was quietly controlled and I always dreaded being on the same board as Raziel. Laid back guy, I look forward to facing him on the streets of Vercuso again
Darius - if only for Dazza's models I want to keep playing against him! Another one who has grasped that fluff is the driving force of any good warband, his eye for design I think is going to really spruce up the charming alleys and piazzas of fine Vercuso
Tim - long suffering, and a voice of reason, I really hope his ogres bring along their mariachi charm again!
Victor - I couldn't have had a better intro to Mordheim than rules maestro Victor! Debonnaire and informative, I really like his basing skills!

...

The Beanbag

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...
As for campaign mechanics et al, I think the tie in with the Sartosa campaign, whilst only mildly interesting to a non-WFB player such as me, just got in the way and didn't really add anything. Although some of the faction locations may prove valuable for points gathering, I think our campaign is robust enough to stand on its own.
The special location rules have all been commented on so all I can do is add my voice to the overwhelming consensus that the Sail Makers Guildhouse possibly gave Matt an advantage in terms of warband development from the off, but we have noone to blame but ourselves for not trying to gain control over it earlier in the campaign. How that little gold mine didn't change hands more times than all the other locations put together I don't know - we created the monster that was the Nezumi Ninjas gentlemen, not Matt!
I can't think of any problems with the other special locations that need fixing. The Vercuso Bridge seemed to have an incredible tactical advantage but we didn't see Saul manouevring much (or did I miss that?). I did use my Merchants Guildhouse to buy some useful stuff on the cheap. I think they all need to be buffed slightly to be more in line with the tangible benefits enjoyed at the Sail Makers piss-ups!

Andy I think we'd be treading on thin ice if we started tinkering with/vetoing warbands. I agree that at the stage they were at, the skaven were ridiculously overpowered in combat but it was artificial. However, why the dickens do fighting claws combined with Art of Silent Death give you +2 attacks? You're still only fighting with two arms and two weapons? The Art of Silent Death is a rule to allow bare handed fighting with no penalties for no weapons, not to buff the fighting claws surely?

As for warbands, I can just say we should all try new things! And as such I can announce I shall be taking... Skaven

I think we should seriously consider the whole impact armour has on the game, or look at the advanced critical hit tables maybe. I just can't reconcile the fact that no matter what weapon you use at some point it could totally negate the advantage that a fully armoured knight on a barded warhorse gains by investing in such equipment (just as an example I created totally at random )

I think with the buildheim sessions coming up, the boards should become much more interesting, more complete and more 3D, the space available is an advantage, the gaming set up at the Mill is superb. I do believe Andy that you spent all but one of your turns last night fannying around in the corner!

I do agree that we should consider playing at other venues to allow for peoples schedules, but continue to use the Mill as the focal point of the campaign.

Erm... think that's it. Twopenneth spent!

spider_mat

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i carnt realy comment on the campagne much cos i this is my first every time of playing

but i think the guild house should be droped fully its to over powered even if it gives even 1 extra xp
xp is surposed to be quite hard to gain

also people complaining about the end game being split into 2 ends is a bit pot calling the kettle black if u ask me

the 3 human warbands forming an alience was just rubish it totaley killed that end of the board and make it bouring
that was the last game we knew we was on short time so why take 3 of the 4 turns we had doing nothing

i know this seems like a mega rant but the alience formed over the other side of the board ment that people just egnored the 3 of you basicaley

granted viktor got 2-3 of his 19 models into a fight with you adem

but if it wasent for my infeltrateing black skaven andy and darius wouldent have seen any action untill the last turn

i just thort that the last game was a bit wet

also i dont think the multi games work wel at all
we rareley finish them cos off time restraints
some times the pacts formed are a little over the top 2 fear and 1 ranged warband v me tehehehe

i know am hveing a mega whine here and i know i played the capagne in the wrong spirit and i apoligise for that

also adem if your gona do skaven ur welcme to my modes

ive got 20+ moddels

8 viable as heros and the rest as vermin kin
and 20+ gient rat models ur welcome to bce and paint

and i am still unshure about what warband to do next ? reikland, posessed, or witch hunters(for the gimp out)

if anyone hasa fully painted warband of the above that i could borrow that would be amazing cos i hate painting
if not does anyone have any models thay wana sell off ?

The Beanbag

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I fear you reap what you sow Matt, all that trash talk during the campaign came back to bite you on your ass
To be fair, you did a damn good job of taking out as many as you did and last as long, yours was the only warband that could have survived all that combat!
Alliances, pacts, shaky gentlemens agreements, backsliding - it's all fair Mordheim game
Can you imagine if Saul and Phil were there as well? Another 30+ models crammed on! It would have been carnage! But I suspect fun

I just can't wait for the next campaign.

A big salute to all of you guys, thanks for making my Mordheim intro a blast!

Andy

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The Beanbag wrote:
Andy I think we'd be treading on thin ice if we started tinkering with/vetoing warbands. I agree that at the stage they were at, the skaven were ridiculously overpowered in combat but it was artificial.

You know you're probably right here, Adam. If we veto one warband, and then another, where does it end? Damn your penchant for bringing logic and reason to things.

Frog

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there was lots of conversation about how good critical hits are..... and how it can effect armour?

well how about we apply the critical hit tables on mordheimer? see:

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Im only thinking using the Close combat and ranged weapons ones.

Davespaceman

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You could have had a pact with me Matt you only had to ask instead of blunderbussing 6 of my guys lol I was amazed how none of them died from that.

I think a smaller board or more players would have been better for the last game I only got to fight Matt then the multicharge on the knight at the end and well that was pants as they alll fluffed thay better get theire bums in gear for the new year.

The Beanbag

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I highly enjoyed that Dave, revenge (well moral) from the last attack you unleashed on my leader, this time he was a far more hardy warrior!
Yeah maybe a slightly smaller board for multiplayer games, to encourage us to have a go if we think we're hard enough!

Flame On Forum

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