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Jeridian

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So, I really enjoy Epic (and Flames of War) for how elegant and tactical the rulesets are, and the models aren't bad.

But, I miss the visual appeal and 'personal' nature of warfare at 28mm scale, where your dealing with individual soldiers lives- one wrong move receives a snipers bullet.

To that end, my on/off project has been to create a wargame at 28mm scale, that represents the sorts of 'contacts', firefights or skirmishes of 'modern' warfare (generally warfare since the invention of the machine gun, but more specifically WW2/Vietnam/Modern). It would revolve around 8-10 units per player with units being small groups of soldiers (such as a 2xman Sniper unit, a 4xman Rifle Section, a single Infantry Fighting Vehicle, etc)- so forces involved would be Platoon/Demi-Company size.

I found a 28mm game with forces bigger than this on a 4' x 6' table really reduced tactical options simply because models swamped the table.

So I've worked out the vast majority of the core rules- and I have no shame in admitting I have plucked and preened my favourite rules mechanics from Epic, from FoW, from Warhammer and yes, even 40k. The aim was always to create a wargame I (and hopefully others) would find intuitive, 'realistic' and tactical at that scale.

For example, players alternate activating units by giving them specific Commands like Move/Shoot or TripleMove- just like Epic.
For example, Pinning plays a huge part in the game reducing a units effectiveness and making it harder to resist an enemy Assault charge- just like in FoW.
Of course, many of the basic mechanics like Rolling To Hit, To Hit Modifiers, the wounding chart would be familiar to 40k/Warhammer players.

Initially I'm working out the rules as a 'historical' wargame, based around modern unit types (such as generic Rifle/SMG/LMG/HMG/Pistol, and Soldier/Conscript/Veteran) so that I can test and tweak the rules to work 'realistically' or a better word 'intuitively'.

A longer aim once these rules work, is to create a 40k 'mod' to once again roll out my 28mm Space Marines, but in a war setting with more tactical complexity (IMO of course).

If anyone's made it this far through the ramble- is anyone remotely interested in trying them out, would anyone be interested in a 28mm modern warfare skirmish ruleset (with 40k potential).

P.S. I'm acutely aware that there are probably very good 28mm skirmish rulesets out there I could use- but I'm arrogant/stubborn/deluded enough to work on my own.

anathema

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Sound interesting. I've never bothered getting into 28mm WWII, but always liked the idea and the way that the GW skirmish games work so a generic skirmish set that could be used for fantasy and reality will be good.

Ade

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yeah sounds interesting to me as well, if I do see you at some point in the near future I can lend you Disposable Heroes and Secrets of the Third Reich both are platoon level games (DH scales a fair bit though)

There is also Ambush Alley but I am waiting until next year when Osprey publish those rules before looking into it.

Grotsmeg

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Sounds good si, im very interested in your work.
Just please dont do a WW1 version i have a feeling it will fail.

Ade

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might be worth looking here as well:

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Jeridian

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Thanks for the comments, guys.

Richard- The idea is to create a wargame engine (like a computer game engine) that simulates warfare at that scale of dozens of men over 600m square (with 300m being the common firefight range regardless of weaponry- human eyes being what they are).

Once it's ironed out this wargame engine can be used to simulate almost any warfare at that scale and numbers you want.

A WW1 'mod' would see most soldiers with single shot rifles (Heavy), with a few dotted about with Heavy Machine Guns (HMG) (Static 6shots). The terrain would of course be two lines of trenches. I understand your comment that this could be a boring stand-off of both sides going into Overwatch- but that's up to the 'mod' designer to make it interesting, such as:

-Night Patrol. Night fighting distance rules, with one side moving random sentry patrols and the other sending a snatch party into no-man's land. The aim is to take a prisoner from the sentry patrols without firing a shot (i.e. in combat) and getting back to your side.
-The Big Push. One side 2 or 3 times the pts of the other, with the objective it must reach the opposite board edge through the enemy trenches. Include a preliminary bombardment of the enemy trenches.

Suffice to say, WW1 isn't my first call for a 'mod'.

Simply by changing the weapons, equipment, vehicles and structure of the force you can use the same skirmish ruleset to represent radically different warzones. Take for example, my first 'mod' being Modern Warfare.

Most soldiers would be armed with Assault Rifles (Basic 2 shots) which are more accurate on the move and have a higher rate of fire than the WW1 Rifle, whilst every 4xman rifle team is likely to have a Light Machine Gun (Heavy 3 shot) increasing their range and rate of fire, or even some form of Light Anti-Tank Weapon (Heavy 1 shot) that can take out medium vehicles.
There would be a lot more Armoured and Unarmoured Vehicles in the forces, possibly even 1 per infantry team in a mechanised or motorised force.

A game like that packs a lot more firepower per man, but is also a lot more mobile as vehicles (especially armoured) are a lot more prevalent to shield from HMG fire and ferry troops about fast. Terrain should also be a lot heavier- be it burned out city ruins, or forest/jungle.

At a stretch you could do even earlier war periods, giving half the troops muskets (Static 1shot) and the others various Combat Weapons, with added rules about Unit Formations.

Thanks for the links Ade, I'll look at them, as I said though, in my arrogance (and boredom) I'm tinkering with my own version.

Added 04.29.2010 12:27:26:
A quick skim of No Limits in your link shows the Alternate Unit Activation is very popular (in their Fantasy Version too), having used it in Epic for a while now I know why. It allows more interaction between players, and it prevents one player getting to do an overwhelming amount in one go before the opponent can react.

They made the cardinal sin of using D10's though. I under it makes it far more accurate by turning dice rolls into easy percentages of odds, but I think D6 win out for ease of access to the type of dice and familiarity amongst players and non-players.

Will read more.

Grotsmeg

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Jeridian wrote:
A WW1 'mod' would see most soldiers with single shot rifles (Heavy), with a few dotted about with Heavy Machine Guns (HMG) (Static 6shots). The terrain would of course be two lines of trenches. I understand your comment that this could be a boring stand-off of both sides going into Overwatch- but that's up to the 'mod' designer to make it interesting, such as:

Agreed that was generally my point. although i like the idea it can be mod'd making something like vietnam and the gulf scenrio's playable.

Mephiston

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I wouldn't let the non D6 nature put you off. Most gamers that play more than GW games will probably have dice in wider sizes already, I know I have.

WarbossKurgan

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I played quite a lot of WW1 games during my "No GW!" phase (about 20 years ago...) - they were not the boring grind you would imagine Richard. Contrary to the image presented by a lot of contemporary WW1 literature there was a lot a variety in the type of engagements and the games often felt like infantry-only WH40k scenarios!

Though I must say Black Adder Goes Forth was more of an influence than any "actual" historical references!

I like the sound of this Si and I'll be watching this thread with interest (probably not giving much input though as I'm no rules writer!)

Jeridian

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I wouldn't let the non D6 nature put you off. Most gamers that play more than GW games will probably have dice in wider sizes already, I know I have.

I don't...

I think when working on a wargame it's best to put up as few hurdles to newcomers as possible.

I played quite a lot of WW1 games during my "No GW!" phase (about 20 years ago...) - they were not the boring grind you would imagine Richard. Contrary to the image presented by a lot of contemporary WW1 literature there was a lot a variety in the type of engagements and the games often felt like infantry-only WH40k scenarios!

Aye, there's plenty of scope in WW1.

You could for example do Early and Late War periods like FoW.

Early would be just before troops really started digging in, hundreds of rifle-armed soldiers advance through fields and villages and chance into each other, rifle fire exchanged, hasty defences dug, MG's and Artillery brought up.

Late War would be the 1918 period where both sides dramatically shifted trenchlines shifting from the offensive to the defensive and back. This was partly possible because of the growing number of tanks, but mainly to development of staggered artillery creep, move-cover-move tactics and Light Machine Guns that could move with the troops.

Even in the Mid War, 1915-1917 of trench fighting- there where big pushes, but also every night patrols would move into no-man's land to probe the enemy line, capture prisoners and gather intelligence.

This is even without mentioning the cavalry war in the East, and numerous other border wars in Africa, mountain warfare in Italy, etc.
A 'mod' for WW1 would be on the high model end IMO (with units of 8-10 rifleman) with high casualties from lethal weaponry. Missions would have to 'encourage' or force one player to throw their troops against the other to prevent a Mexican standoff.

Anyway, core rules wise as I said the majority are ready for testing- Basic Turn Structure, Movement, Shooting, Terrain.

What I'm working on are:

-Assault Command: Predictably this is the most complex rule section, as the opponent gets to interact directly.

Essentially the activated unit can make one Movement and then fight an Assault.

I'm considering.

Both sides attack using their CQC value (WS), in the following order:
-Charging Unit throws Grenade weapons- resolve damage.
-Defending Unit shoots- with Pistol weapons as normal, Basic at +1 To Hit, Heavy at +2, Static at +3- resolve damage.
-Attacking Unit shoots- with Pistol weapons at +1 To Hit, Basic at +2, Heavy at +3, Static cannot fire- resolve damage.
-Attacking Unit fights hand-to-hand- resolve damage.
-Defending Unit fights hand-to-hand- resolve damage.

Intuitively, the attacker throws grenades before going over the top, thinning the defenders. Then the defenders open fire on the charging enemy. Then the attackers get their shots in before barrelling into the defenders with rifle-butt and bayonet. The defenders reacting with their own hand-to-hand weapons.

If a unit is Pinned or Broken either it can't shoot weapons (but can fight hand-to-hand), or suffers a +? to hit modifier- I've yet to decide.

After all that, if anyone's still alive- both sides total up kills, plus some other modifiers. The difference in score is the modifier to the Leadership test the losing side has to pass to keep fighting.

If they pass, another combat round starts- this time only fighting hand-to-hand simultaneously.

Well, my summary rambled into almost the full blown rules, but I think it makes a Charge a risky, and often deadly proposition where the defending unit realistically can gun down your troops on the run in. However if you Pinned the target unit previously (most commonly by another of your units firing on it), it will not put out as heavy defensive fire and so your troops can run in relatively unscathed.

Much like in Epic (and FoW) charging into an enemy to stab them requires a lot of preparation and co-operation from your other units, but it can give decisive results.

The second area is Vehicles, but I think I've rambled enough for now.

Jeridian

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I think that was a good two games.

The forces present had around 5 units, about half the size of an 'average' game. Introducing vehicles will also increase the mobility of the game I think.

Feedback: A unit shot at must take a Ld test or become Pinned. But once Pinned being shot at doesn't affect them, regardless of how many enemy units shoot at them.
Chris suggested if a Pinned unit is shot at it should take a Ld test or become Broken.
I've amended the rules to do this, so it is possible to pin then force an enemy unit to withdraw without killing any of them just through sheer weight of firepower.

Ade's also generously lent me some 28mm Skirmirsh rulesets like Secrets of the Third Reich which I'll be feverishy looking through for 'inspiration'.

Now, on to vehicles.

Jeridian

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I'm getting close to finishing the very first, very rough draft of the Firefight wargame, and so it comes to what could arguably be considered the much harder design task of making balanced, variable armies with a pts system.

So, firstly, what 'mod' are people most interested in seeing first- WW2, Modern Warfare, 40k or something else.

Second, pick two armies for each period you'd like to see first (as the two test cases)?

And a call for volunteer guinea pigs?

hello_dave

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Always willing to squeeze a game in when I can

I think WW2 would probably be an easier task than the 'eclectic' range of stuff that the 40k universe allows you to bring, so I think it would be a more straightforward project. On the other hand trying to fit all of the various flying tanks, varying technology levels and monsters that you can have in 40k would probably stretch the rules engine, and doing it first might mean that you don't have to revise the rules to cope and thus invalidate earlier mods.

Course I'd love to see a Dune-iverse mod at some point

Ade

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my choice would probably be humans (with various weapon and armour options) possibly with the option of paid for force traits, i think working of a "human" baseline allows for better balance and also lets you scale you "space marines" to the level you want afterwards.

(my preference for Space Marine power levels would be movie marines with a 10 man squad being equivalent to an infantry platoon)

anathema

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'Force' traits? Star Wars mod ftw!

Jeridian

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Helpfully diverse, hehe.

Star Wars and Dune, now that's interesting.

I tend to agree Darren that WW2 will be the easier mod compared to 40k madness, I'm not too concerned about missing out 40k special rules. Generally the rulebook will have a set of generic special rules, whilst each 'mod' will contain it's own exotic special rules. 40k for example will include a Monsters section (essentially a special variant of vehicle) and maybe some Psychic section.

The hope is the basic rules won't need to be changed as they reflect how troops act and react at squad level regardless of colour, creed or time period.

Ade- I agree, 40k when it started worked around the humble human as the baseline. Then Marines exploded in popularity and now they are the baseline, the rapid increas in AP3 shows that.

We disagree on the power level of Space Marines, which may be a sticking point, I tend to envision Marines as being so badass because they have the technology, discipline and training to outsmart and outmaneouver any enemy. They can drop in, kill your Command bunker and withdraw before your Tank Companies and millions of conscripts can react.

The Armoured Nipples and 'I walk forward and smite thee' idea of Marines just chewing through those Tank Companies and conscripts doesn't make sense for me as they are only 1000 strong and weaponry in 40k is literally 'heat of the sun' lethal.
Much like Epic, to do well with Marines you've got to outmaneouver the opponent, the weight is on you to beat them, not them to get past your Armoured Nipples saves.

That said, they ain't to shabby- the ability to shrug off enemy shooting being harder to Pin and Break is a powerful thing, and can tip the balance in a close firefight. Plus 3+ armour is not to be shrugged at.

I'm looking at 5xSM units, fighting 10xIG units, so a Tactical Squad is worth 20 Guardsmen if that helps.

(Sorry, Marines are close to my wargaming heart)

Dave- I'm surprised you haven't backed WW2. Star Wars seems more a roleplay to me (tiny cast of named Rebel heroes sneaking around a base filled with nameless inaccurate Storm Troopers).

With that helpful poll, , I'm looking to do WW2 first, predictably a British Rifle Company list and a German Grenadier Kompanie.

The Warlord miniatures box set at Stockport Gaming Centre for £25 pretty much gives you a full army for Firefight, depending on if you want to go full infantry. Whilst their website is stocked with almost all the models you could need- from MG teams, to AT Guns, to Panzers and Shermans.

Curis

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Oh, have you tweaked the rules for pinned units being shot?

I'd like to see generic infantry sci-fi rules, so we could field whatever models we have in our collections regardless of game universe and manufacturer. Koralon versus Nids. Marines versus Khador. Bauhaus bersus Imperial Guard.

Jeridian

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Aye I have, normal units taking fire take a Pinning test or Pinned.
Pinned units take a Pinning test or Broken.
Broken units take a Pinning test or destroyed.

The core rules will be 'generic', but the hard part when creating models, units and armies is balancing them against each other through a pts system.
Sure, you can have Star Wars vs Star Trek but it is up to the 'mod' writer to balance the forces involved.

Game universe crossovers are not high on my agenda, your free to pursue them. If you wish to use models from various manufacturers to 'counts as' in a single game universe that's great.

Curis

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Ahhh, then let me tell you of Song of Blades and Heroes (check yer inbox) - they have a genericising approach to models where you can boil down everything to a few characteristics and special rules regardless of universe or manufacturer. You might want to borrow some of their ideas.

anathema

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I wasn'5t really backing Star wars, just being flippant. Starting another army in 28mm isn't high on my list of priorities at the mo, so I'm happy to observe.

Jeridian

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Bah, £25 and job done Dave, hehe.

Curis

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i WaNt ChUnKy GaRiSh FiGuReS.

Jeridian

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Hehe, feel free. One of the beauties of a free, independent ruleset is that you can use whatever the hell want as long as its:
-Roughly equivalent.
-Your opponent doesn't develop epilepsy playing it.

Admittedly, WW2, or other historical mods may have a tough time buying it, but 40k is a free for all.

Ade

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Si are you going to upload the rules and your points basis for us to have a look at?

I am interested in giving this a go on Tuesday at Stockport assuming I can make it down

Jeridian

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Hope to soon, need to finish off Model Special Abilities, Weapon Special Abilities and Missions.

Then work out a rough WW2 'mod' document with pts.

As ever, my disclaimer is this is the roughest of rough drafts, beta testing, human guinea pigs and all that.

Flame On Forum

Si's Wargame Project

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