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Jeridian

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I've rushed this out to whet the appetite.

Pts costs are purely on my gut instinct right now, some things may turn out to be more or less powerful with playtesting.

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Jeridian

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Don't know if anyone's seen this yet, but it is ideal for a WW2 28mm game.

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Jeridian

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Well, I've bit the bullet and thrown out an alpha test copy, warts and all:

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I've removed the Vehicle, Model Special Abilities, Weapon Special Abilities and Missions sections as they are WIP.

The rules linked are the basic core rules, please tear them apart, and let me know from spelling mistakes to deep fundamental flaws.

To preempt the excellent criticism I recieved from my two harshest playtesters,

Core-

I've made the Conceal Command a Move then Conceal (+1 to hit), with the ability to then take an Overwatch Command in a subsequent turn and remain Concealed until you fire.
So essentially you move up, dig in and then set your gunsights.

I've also included Conceal as a Reactive Command option so you can now Move, Shoot (at +1) or Conceal when all else fails.

I've also included the Intermingled Unit option for the Shoot Action, so you can spray a HMG at a group of units if they are foolish enough not to keep decent squad spacings.

Few other tweaks I can't remember right now.

Model Special Abilities-

Spotter/Indirect- This whole area is a ballache that's yet to be perfected. I am now looking at Ade's suggestion which is to have the Spotter as his own separate unit but it is activated at the same time as the Indirect unit it is a attached too. This is to avoid Activation Spam by taking loads of Indirect/Spotter models.
It also makes it easier to co-ordinate indirect fire, as I can simply say both Spotter and Indirect must Sustain to fire indirect using the Spotters LOS (with the Spotter not shooting).
Still need to flesh out the wording and see how it works.

Camouflage (WIP name)- It was drawn to my attention that exceptionally sneaky gits like a Sniper, should be very hard, to impossible to shoot until they open fire (generally the enemy doesn't know they are there until that point). I didn't want to create a whole new level of record keeping with counters to represent the Sniper, or the Sniper player drawing secret maps to show his movements, or to keep track of when he's fired (do you count previous turns, how many turns until he's hidden again, etc).
I hope an elegant way is to say models with Camouflage are +3 to be shot at when Concealed rather than +1.

A Sniper Concealed in a Building is +4 to hit. HMG Sustaining on 7+.
If the Sniper shoots from the building he's +2 to hit. HMG Sustaining on 5+.

Armies- This one is very raw, and I encourage others (when they know the ropes) to have a go with their own pet projects (favourite armies).
When I wrote the Brit Rifle Co and German Grenadierkompanie it was very much a bare bones, generic list to test the game with.

With Ade and Dave both being Flames of War WW2 gamers I was always going to be outthought on this one, I look forward to your advice on WW2 armies especially.

Army list writing is, and should generally, be the last step after the core and vehicle/special abilities have been done to a beta level, but you can't test the core rules without a basic army list. Hence the rough list.

I'll look again at the Test Army Lists though.

One suggestion was that each unit should have a leader (Corporal/Sgt) that should effect Command (C) and/or Leadership (Ld) somehow.

How's this?

A Corporal/Sgt is Ld 8, C 2+. A Rifleman Ld 7, C 3+.

Another noted objection was my 'pooling' of Stens/MP 40 SMG's into a single unit. This reflects my 40k background, where units generally where specialised to either shoot you from afar, or hit you up close.
But if the WW2 players want diverse units- I am thinking of having the option that any Rifleman/Corporal/Sgt can replace his Bolt-Action Rifle with an SMG?
What do you think? Should it be Corporal/Sgt only? Or up to half the unit? Or up to the whole unit?

Should I give the upgrade option of 'frag' grenades for all units?

I'll rehash the Test Army Lists document and see if you like it better. Next step would be for you to work out some 1000pts lists using them (the old netlisting finding power lists).

If there's any advice I forgot, or you've thought of more please let me know.

Ade

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most of the info I have on force dispositions in WW2 i got from here:

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very very useful resource.

Jeridian

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Considering my only resource so far is Flames of War, it is a great link. Thanks.

anathema

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Wonder if its worth considering a FoW style auto-pin mechanism, ie. X hits means you're pinned without taking a test?

I know from a mate who served in Afghanistan that they were more bothered about laying down vast amounts of firepower than hitting anything in order to drive the Taliban off when his convoy was attacked.

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Last edited by anathema (2010-05-26 10:22:17)

Jeridian

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Wonder if its worth considering a FoW style auto-pin mechanism, ie. X hits means you're pinned without taking a test?

I think the Pinning mechanism has a similar effect.

Each time you shoot at the unit it must take a Pinning (Ld) Test. With armies of 8-10 units average, you could theoretically force 8-10 Pinning Tests.
I've also made suffering casualties a modifier to Ld (-1 for 25%+ lost, -2 for 50% lost, -3 for Last Man).
This also allows heroic courage and momentary panic to be included, if you somehow pass those 8-10 Ld tests your clearly a legendary hero they'll pin medals on and write home about, whilst even the hardiest soldier may instinctively duck his head if a shot is particularly close by failing the first Ld test.

Put another way, if you hit 5 times, that's more often than not 5 dead soldiers. There is a +1 to Ld if no shots hit, so in a roundabout way taking hits does reduce your Ld test.

Epic does have a system of Blast Markers for coming under fire and casualties that has a similar effect to the FoW Pinned Down rule in that it clocks up the incoming fire to a critical point.
With Firefight though, I ideally want as little record keeping and markers as possible.

Curis

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I liked the change to pinning - in my game was attempting to pick on units and hopefully break them (not having to do many casualties) so I could then wipe them out with another round of shooting. It felt more tactical.

I like the idea of shooting at intermingled units. I had two units fairly intermingled and thought it wasn't really a bad thing (unless there were blasts about).

Could we deploy on the long edges? The fist turn's marching is rather tedious rather than being cagey. And it's a mild pain having to walk around the other side of the table to move units on that side.

There seemed little advantage to climbing building levels. Could I suggest a mechanism where units in the building only measure horizontal ranges when firing, but horizontal and vertical distances when being fired at? It's a definite mechanic, and gives an advantge for controlling the higher ground. Is it realistic? I don't know.

Jeridian

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Eventually I will work out some more missions.
I was looking at the mission people played, and another where one player is holding the middle with half their units, the attacker moving from one short edge, the defenders reserves moving from the other short edge. The Attacker must rush and capture the objectives before the reserves can make their presence felt.

In the first mission, Capture the Village, the long distance between forces allows both to make early moves without coming under fire.
In the second missions, Take and Hold, the long distance between forces allows the race between Attackers and Reserves.

In practice it does make sense that March is 90% of early commands, which can get tedious. With tanks and transports maybe not as much.

Interestingly one of the big complaints with 40k for me was every gun starting in range and turn 1 being a wall of pain for the losing roller. I suppose Epic Alternate Unit Activation reduces this.

Aside from those 2 missions, long board edges will be the norm.

On Buildings, I think this is true, it's also the hassle of having to move up and down them (thus reducing your horizontal reach) as a downside. There should be some upside.

Adding the vertical height to the floor occupied does sound definite. What do others think? Should we include this? I'll definitely test it next time we play.

Jeridian

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Quick update.

With the Conceal Action I've had a radical rethink.

Mainly due to Ade's deep-rooted belief in sniper hiding. Giving them camouflage as a +2 to hit certainly made them very hard to hit, but it didn't stop everyone with a gun shooting in their general direction and potentially Pinning them down.

So I've made Concealed units force a 'Spotting Test' on anyone trying to shoot them (rather than a simple +1 to hit modifier).

Units have to take a Command test using the Command value with the modifiers:

Light Cover +1
Heavy Cover +2
Camouflage +2
More than 60cm away +1
Less than 30cm away -1

If failed, the shooters must choose a different target.

In other news, I've added a Medic (a single soldier unit, friends in 15cm can re-roll Pinning Tests), and a Radio Operator (Commanders re-roll extends across board rather than just 30cm).

The British Rifle Platoon list is hopefully a lot more historically accurate now, much to the historical gamers relief.

My 1000pts list for example is:

Platoon HQ- Lieutenant (Sten), Sgt (Sten), Rifleman (Sten), Radio Operator (Sten). 185
Jeep- 50
Medic. 50
Sniper- Rifleman (SMLE Rifle), Rifleman (Sniper Rifle), Camouflage.
Rifle Section- Corporal (Sten), 3x Rifleman (SMLE Rifle). 100
Rifle Section- Lance Corporal (Sten), 2xRifleman (SMLE Rifle), 1xRifleman (Bren LMG). 125
Rifle Section- Corporal (Sten), 3xRifleman (SMLE Rifle). 100
MG Section- Corporal (Sten), 2xRifleman (SMLE Rifle), 1xRifleman- Vickers HMG. 150
Light Mortar- Rifleman (SMLE Rifle), Rifleman (Light Mortar). 75
PIAT Team- Rifleman (SMLE Rifle), Rifleman (PIAT). 75

Total: 985

I've also given the SMLE Rifle a +1 Strength in close combat to represent Bayonets and Rifle Butts.

anathema

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Personally I reckon you should leave medics out altogether unless you're dealing with fantasy style armies. From what I imagine to happen, when one man goes down wounded it takes another couple to drag him to safety or an aid station and to a medic to get treatment. A medic on the spot will reduce the temporary loss of manpower, put won't get men up and fighting again and they won't make you less bothered about being pinned I would have thought.

The only thing that might make you a bit more likely to get up and start moving again other than leadership is the suppression of the unit pinning you down, but that would require bookkeeping.

On the subject of snipers, I imagine that the first time soldiers knew about them was when they were shot at . Ideally you'd have them in some form of pre-determined ambush spot. Maybe simply nominating a terrain piece and have them deploy concealed anywhere in that piece would be possible.

On another point, defintely worth looking at restricting movement in buildings, otherwise there's no sense in going anywhere else. Not only do you have to work your way around rubble, the chance that an enemy might be lurking in very close proximity should slow people down. It also might be worth restricting the orders available (ie. tripling moves) if there are enemy within a certain distance to represent cautious movement in areas with known enemy activity.

Curis

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Hello.

Can I ask you about the pinning and morale mechanics.

Why did you go for a leadership-based system à la 40K as opposed to a more straightforward rip of Epic's blast markers mechanic? It can't be for record-keeping since you're lying down dead figures to measure when you get to 25%. And it's not because you don't have blast markers to hand. Is it so you can reflect different degrees of being drilled?

Jeridian

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Personally I reckon you should leave medics out altogether unless you're dealing with fantasy style armies. From what I imagine to happen, when one man goes down wounded it takes another couple to drag him to safety or an aid station and to a medic to get treatment. A medic on the spot will reduce the temporary loss of manpower, put won't get men up and fighting again and they won't make you less bothered about being pinned I would have thought.

Perhaps. I'll be honest and say my Warlord Games box contained a Medic and I couldn't resist the idea of using the model for an in-game effect. Plus my experience of war movies has medic running everywhere tending the wounded.
I agree a medic shouldn't be able to put men back into the fight like 40k mechanisms often do, if your wounded enough to be removed as a casualty, your not picking up your rifle after a bandage.

I can see your point about medics and morale, I can try to justify the change to morale two ways.
Knowing there's a medic just behind me trained to be the first step in a long, dedicated line of hospital treatment might encourage me to stay in the fight longer in the knowledge I will recieve aid.
If a squad mate is wounded, the medic can tend to them, rather than fellow squad mates- so they can concentrate on staying in the fight and returning fire.

Perhaps a re-roll is a bit too powerful, perhaps a +1 to Ld for Pinning Tests within 15cm.

The only thing that might make you a bit more likely to get up and start moving again other than leadership is the suppression of the unit pinning you down, but that would require bookkeeping.

If the enemy is Pinned or Broken, they're less likely to be able to Pin or Break your units.

On the subject of snipers, I imagine that the first time soldiers knew about them was when they were shot at . Ideally you'd have them in some form of pre-determined ambush spot. Maybe simply nominating a terrain piece and have them deploy concealed anywhere in that piece would be possible.

Aye, I'm loathe to add additional special rules and bookkeeping that are not connected to the core rules.

The present rules I have rely on the player to conceal his Sniper.
For example, I can take a Conceal Command with a Camouflaged Sniper allowing me to Move once, then Conceal. So I move into a building and Conceal.
Then the opponent HMG takes a Sustain Command and trys to shoot the Sniper.

They must first take a Spot Test on their Command 2+ if within 30cm (+2 for Heavy Cover, +2 Camouflage, -1 for range) they need a 5+ or must shoot something else.
Within 60cm they need a 6+, outside 60cm they need a 7+ so automatically must choose another target.

If they do spot the sniper, they then will need to hit on (+2 Heavy Cover) 5+.

On another point, defintely worth looking at restricting movement in buildings, otherwise there's no sense in going anywhere else. Not only do you have to work your way around rubble, the chance that an enemy might be lurking in very close proximity should slow people down. It also might be worth restricting the orders available (ie. tripling moves) if there are enemy within a certain distance to represent cautious movement in areas with known enemy activity.

The Terrain rules are open-ended. You have Open/Light Cover/Heavy Cover for to-hit modifiers, Open/Difficult/Very Difficult/Impassable for movement. Players agree for each terrain type what they are. So Buildings will probably be Heavy Cover, Difficult Terrain (I learnt my lesson from making them Open, there was no reason not to move through them).

Why did you go for a leadership-based system à la 40K as opposed to a more straightforward rip of Epic's blast markers mechanic? It can't be for record-keeping since you're lying down dead figures to measure when you get to 25%. And it's not because you don't have blast markers to hand. Is it so you can reflect different degrees of being drilled?

It's a Flames of War mechanic.
Basically I wanted to distinguish between Courage and Training, the Ld value represents courage whether it be trained, ingrained or instinctive- someone can be really brave but not very skilled when using weapons, following orders, taking the initiative.
Training represents the ability to use weapons, follow orders, take the initiative, etc- someone can be highly trained, but reluctant to risk their lives.
For example, fanatical conscripts could have Ld 10, but be Command 3+ or worse. They are very unlikely to take cover (Pinned) or withdraw, but they are also unlikely to do anything you the commander orders them too (Command test) instead doing their own thing (Reactive Command).

Jeridian

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I've been working on the WW2 Infantry Platoon army lists and there's the option for Tank Support in both Brit Rifle Platoon and German Grenadierzug.

I want to provide 5 options for each, I'm open to suggestions as to what these 5 vehicles might be, my early idea is:

Brit Rifle Platoon
-Sherman
-Churchill
-One of the Scout Car thingies?
-Another tank? Grant? Cromwell?
-Self-propelled Gun?

German Grenadierzug
-Panzer
-Panther
-Tiger
-Stug
-? Armoured Car?

Any suggestions welcome, the lists are generally aimed at 44-45, North Europe theatre.

Ade

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Maus for the Germans obviously

Jeridian

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Hehe, no. I'm pushing it with the option for a Tiger, which will probably be in the 800-1000pts region.

The options can be any vehicle, not just a tank, ideally it will be an 'iconic' or commonplace vehicle that supported infantry forces during WW2- like the Sherman or the Stug.

Ade

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a halftrack for each side? some sort of SP artillary vehicle?

Jeridian

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Aye, that kind of thing. Your the history buffs, give me specific choices-

jimmy

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Brits:
Churchill
Sherman
Cromwell
Universal/Bren Carrier
M10

Jerries:
Stug
Panzer IV
Panther
Tiger
one of the armoured halftracks

Jeridian

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I've included the M10 Wolverine, good call.

The Cromwell? Will have to research that.

I should have noted Universal Carrier and Jeep are already included as transports, rather than Tank Support (think Troop attachment rather than Heavy Support).

For the Germans, I may give them an Armoured Half-track in place of the Universal Carrier transport option.

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Last edited by Jeridian (2010-06-10 14:06:50)

jimmy

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I included the cromwell as it was quite special - one of the 'fast' tanks in the war, plus there wasn't that many tanks used by the brits - Challenger maybe, but thats quite late war

Added 06.10.2010 15:25:25:
Firefly maybe - gives the Brits something to deal with Tigers/Panthers

Jeridian

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My latest versions in their rawest form. Particularly the vehicle rules.

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And the British Rifle Platoon, also fresh and riddled with flaws.

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jimmy

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Si? - what scale models are you using? - I was in hobbycraft the other day and they've got 1:48 soliders and tanks for quite cheap -10quid for a platoon of men, or a tank - could get a tiger for 15quid. They also had 1:36 men as well, wondered if these would match scalewise?

Ade

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1:48 is roughly 28mm scale. Which is what Si is using.

Jeridian

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Aye, as Ade says I've been aiming at the 28mm scale range, though minor scale differences shouldn't matter.

I can bring the game in on Tuesday if you want.

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