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jimmy

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Cool, i'll be about then

hello_dave

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Had another game of Si's system last night. Once I got my head around the mechanics (which are now quite a departure from Epic) it flowed pretty well, with relatively intuitive modifiers and a straightforward range of actions. In short it was a fun game, the only critism (and it didn't really bother me) is that it can be a bit of a maths-fest with all of the modifiers. Part of me wonders if a cover save might be more straightforward than a to-hit modifier

Jeridian

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I was going to respond to this as soon as it was posted but it deserved a long response and I was constantly distracted. That and I had to swallow the vomit at the mention of Cover Saves...

My aversion to unmodified Cover Saves replacing To Hit modifiers for Cover predictably comes from 40k. In 40k, the Cover Save game mechanic is counter-intuitive for me.

First of all it replaces Armour Saves, so your better off wearing a T-Shirt than paying for expensive body armour if stood behind a tree. I strongly believe a soldier wearing body armour is going to be better protected than a soldier wearing a t-shirt, even if both are stood behind a tree.

Second the way AP works in 40k, if your Armour is good, but the AP ignores it that's generally the only time you take the Cover Save instead. Again this doesn't sit right with me because it means small arms, rifles, and shrapnel that realistically might be stopped by sandbags, brick walls, etc are stopped by your Armour instead- meaning you might as well have been stood in a field. Whilst high energy shells, massive explosions and other lethal tank guns your Armour is ignored, you use the Cover and a tree suddenly protects you where against small arms it was irrelevant.

There are, of course, compromises that could be made.

For example, problem 1 may be resolved by making the Cover Save an additional save before Armour, so troops with good armour can roll both and so benefit from both.

Problem 2 may be resolved by making Cover Saves modifiable by Armour Save modifiers just like Armour- so an anti-tank shell will pass through both just as viciously.

Neither of these resolve another issue- in modern warfare cover is far more useful at concealing your position than at actually stopping bullets. Most weapons will pass through most cover if they know where to shoot.
To Hit Cover modifiers elegantly represent this without the need for various additional Cover Saves and have knock on effects with regards to how weapons and units work. For example, a Sniper with scope and patience (Sustain) is more likely to spot and shoot troops hiding in cover than a Rifleman who doubles forward and takes a potshot in their direction. Having purely Cover Saves would mean both troops hit the target equally with the Cover Save being the same chance against both.

On our game, we pretty much used all the modifiers most of the time.

We both Doubled a lot (+1 to hit) because we wanted to move about quickly.
We both made tactical use of Cover (+1/2 to hit) because we wanted to protect our troops.
We both in general carried Bolt-Action Rifles, which I've classed as Heavy Weapons (+1 if moved).

So we both were looking at +3/4 to hit all the time.

I enjoyed the game too, I think units and game mechanics work roughly as I intended they just need a lot of fine-tuning and then a simplyfying of the wording were possible.

Additions I liked (neither being my idea)- the Conceal Action allowing Snipers, etc to lie low and be almost immune to long-distance shooting (as enemy units have to 'Spot' them to shoot them). Similarly Chris' idea to add the height of a model above the shooter (i.e. floors in buildings) to the distance when shooting proved very tactical. Troops entrenched on rooftops could open fire on troops on the ground who themselves had to move closer to get into range.

Tanks dominate and intimidate, but all it takes is one lucky shot with a 6pdr or a determined assault or PIAT team to bring them down. Points are quite arbitrary at this stage so finetuning will eventually be done, but at 5 times the cost of 4 Rifleman I think the medium tank is close to where it should be in cost.

Assault Actions are very rare and difficult to set-up well (you tend to be gunned down as you run in) which I find is fair in modern/historical warfare but may be tricky to juggle in a 40k mod.

I need to complete the first draft of the vehicle rules really, from there it's finetuning.

WarbossKurgan

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Jeridian wrote:
Similarly Chris' idea to add the height of a model above the shooter (i.e. floors in buildings) to the distance when shooting proved very tactical. Troops entrenched on rooftops could open fire on troops on the ground who themselves had to move closer to get into range.

We house-ruled that into our Mordheim games when the taller buildings weren't getting used at all - now occupying them is a major tactical advantage. It works very well!

jimmy

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Si - have you thought about using different scales for this?

For example using 15mm for bigger battles, you could still individually mount infantry figures, but it'd give you the advantage of using tanks etc.

Added 08.16.2010 13:37:37:
also - how you doing with the vehicle rules?

What kinda stuff you looking at for the Germans?

Jeridian

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Si - have you thought about using different scales for this?

I've worked on the basis of 25 - 30mm as a game system able to use 40k/Warhammer scale models and terrain.
I like this scale for the level of detail on the models and the size of the game as a skirmish ruleset. Not to mention my vast collection of 28mm models...

For example using 15mm for bigger battles, you could still individually mount infantry figures, but it'd give you the advantage of using tanks etc.

You can use tanks in the current scale, I'm aiming for games similar in size to Ye Olde 2nd Ed 40k, where players had 5-6 infantry units of 3-6 models each, supported by 2-3 vehicles.

However, if you half all the Movement and Range values (e.g. infantry moving 7.5cm, rifles firing 30cm, etc) it should work at 15mm.
Two concerns I have are that:
-This game is comparable to 40k/Necro in terms of individuals being important, with the minutae of what weapons they have being important, but with good modelling it should be feasible at 15mm.
-The bigger concern is the idea of 'bigger battles'- much like 2nd Ed 40k, the rules are too detailed to play games much bigger than the above example of unit amounts. Any bigger and your on the cusp of having a force comparable to a 1000pts Flames of War force- in which case you'll get a more accurately scaled ruleset with Flames of War. Again though, if you set aside a whole day for a big game I believe the Firefight ruleset should work, it's just more time consuming. In short I'm happy with the 6mm-15mm wargames available to me and the scale of warfare they represent (i.e. Company/Regiment size)- but I've not found a 28mm skirmish wargames ruleset (i.e. Squad/Platoon size) I entirely like.

also - how you doing with the vehicle rules?

I'm probably going to regret saying this but I believe I have a ready-to-go ruleset done including vehicles. It needs fresh eyes and playtesting though.
The biggest sticking point for my vehicle rules was/is how they interact with Armour Save Modifiers.
Essentially a vehicle has the same profile stats as an infantryman but understandably with much better Toughness, Wounds and Armour Saves. The problem is that it's Toughness is more important than it's Armour Save since Armour Save is dependent on arc of fire and the ASM modifiers which makes sense for infantry but not so much for vehicles. A vehicles Armour Save should essentially distinguish it be it a 6+ Jeep or a 1+ Tiger, and passing that Save represents the shell bouncing off.

Without rambling on, I think I've played around with the Toughness and Armour Saves and Weapon Stats enough to ensure that pouring Machine Gun fire towards a Tiger Tank shouldn't result it it exploding.

What kinda stuff you looking at for the Germans?

Here's the latest unplaytested list:

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

Really, the best way I can show you the game is to drag you down to Stockport for a demo game of it, Tuesday 24th?

jimmy

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sounds good - I'll bring along some guardsmen to rep the jerries.

Added 08.16.2010 16:44:29:
how many points do you expect to play?

Jeridian

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1500pts sounds good (just enough to squeeze a tank in).

I'll bring a British Rifle Platoon then.

Just let me know what you plan to take so I can refresh on some of the more obscure rules like Smoke and Indirect Fire.

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Last edited by Jeridian (2010-08-16 16:04:44)

jimmy

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okies - will see what I can find to proxy

Jeridian

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Well, I had a great game thanks. It's a lot harder for the Attacker than it first appears.

I'm pretty happy with the general rules, and the points costs of the things used. The Panzer refused to die and blew great chunks out of my army with each volley but then it cost roughly 4 times as much as anything I had so it should have.
A lucky PIAT hit in turn 2 or 3 could have put a spanner in the works.

In hindsight I should have massed even more on the right objective, perhaps moving the MG Section up into the building or forest too. Time is against the Attacker, and each turn I fail to grab the objective brings more reinforcements, and more gunfire, onto my force.

Any comments, suggestions, corrections you'd like to offer, Jimmy, feel free- consider it vital playtesting.

In the meantime I'm looking at doing a United States Army 'platoon' next (then Russian, then look at variants like a Mechanised Platoon, etc).

I'm pretty set on making the Garand a Basic rifle rather than Heavy, this makes it marginally better in shooting on the move and in defensive/close range assault shooting.
Despite Ade's protestations I'm very reluctant to mess with the 4 man rifle, 4 man rifle/LMG formula that's worked for German and British- but will consider it if it's important enough.
Instead of the LMG stats I was considering making the BAR a Heavy 2 instead of Heavy 3 like the Bren or MG34.
E.g. Rifle Squad- 4xGarand. 115pts. 10pts to upgrade one to BAR.
Also throw in a Bazooka similar to the Panzerfaust as a one-shot upgrade. Is it like the Panzerfaust (disposable) or more like the PIAT/Panzerschreck (special team, re-usable)?
Finally, the Greasegun is just the SMG (Sten, MP40), but what about the Thompson? Does it need representing? Should it be Str5 instead of 4 SMG? Costs?
What else is iconic about the Americans at an infantry platoon level?

Rug

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Bazooka is re-usable.

This looks interesting. Level of detail is a problem as your kind of half way between lots and none which will make neither camp very happy! But if it's for personal use it hardly matters!

Bren was magazine fed, where MG34 was belt fed and was notorious for it's high rate of fire. In the light support role the Bren also waddles forward so needs resetting frequently. Maybe Bren should be 2 or MG34 4?

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Last edited by Rug (2010-08-26 14:53:33)

Mephiston

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Hmmm, might have a play with this using my 20mm modern's.

Ade

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For peeps wanting ww2 28mm models westwind have a sale on their Berlin or Bust range at the moment:

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Jeridian

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Bazooka is re-usable.

Got it, that's easy enough- it'll be a Bazooka Team.

This looks interesting. Level of detail is a problem as your kind of half way between lots and none which will make neither camp very happy! But if it's for personal use it hardly matters!

Intriguing analysis. It's satifies the camp I'm in. I've found hyper-detailed small games like Necromunda, Inquisitor, etc too few in models for a satisfying wargame (as opposed to gangs, etc) and fiddly to keep track of everything, whilst games like 40k have gone for oversized forces that saturate the board area preventing any maneouver- anyone watching a game involving 2 or more IG Valkyries in 40k can't seriously think it's tactical. I think it's the ideal model count for a 28mm game on a 6x4 board- but I would say that. It's roughly around the size of 2nd Ed 40k sizes and coincidentally of comparable detail.

Bren was magazine fed, where MG34 was belt fed and was notorious for it's high rate of fire. In the light support role the Bren also waddles forward so needs resetting frequently. Maybe Bren should be 2 or MG34 4?

Coming from my oh so accurate Day of Defeat Online Gaming...
MG34 is drum-fed (though can be belt-fed) and was a light support MG in a similar way to the Bren. Admittedly it had a higher rate of fire and ammo count, but not enough IMO to warrant differing stat line. I've found it easier to balance when various similar weapons have the same stat (e.g. Sten/MP40/Greasegun being SMG stats, Bren/MG34 being LMG, Vickers/MG42/30.cal being HMG, etc)
The MG42 on the otherhand was notorious for the 'buzzsaw' sound of it's ridiculous rate of fire, and in Firefight is a Heavy Machine Gun with Shots 6 (compared to the LMG's 3).

It was a double-edged sword choosing WW2 as the first mod for the ruleset, on the one hand no copyright, humans vs. humans for the most part, similar weapons on all sides but on the other hand I am eventually gonna have to cut out accuracy for balance and this will irritate historical players.

Anyway, I'll be playing around with a 40k mod which should be fun.

Flame On Forum

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