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blessed knight

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Going SS.

Company HQ
2 Panzer IV H + Schurzen 380

Combat Platoons
Mittlere Panzer Platoon
3 Panzer III L or M + Schurzen 405

1943 Schwere Panzer Platoon
1 Tiger 1 E 435

Divisional support
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon
HQ(SMG) + 3 squads 280

1500 total

Please give comments etc re: composition and actual usefulness in game.

first go at a list and never played before.

anathema

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Very small army, I also run a mid-war panzerkompanie and whiloe they're highlt trained there's not much room for error. Will write more later when I'm not late for work, but intial thoughts:

No Smoke, you'll be attacking infantry and it makes life so much easier, even if its just a single mortar section.
PzIVH are probably overkill unless you face tank hordes, the tigger has the range and AT to whittle down opposing medium tank hordes, you'd probably be better with more IIIMs or Ns for the points or going with Marders if you want some high end AT. You could get some armoured cars with the savings leading to:
IMO a recce unit is a must for any form of tank company to make dug in units easier to hit.
Going SS makes a small company even tinier! Probably not the easiest starter army to pick.

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Last edited by anathema (2010-07-09 06:42:27)

Ade

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Everything Dave said also you are going to want at least 4 platoons in there.

jimmy

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Tis small - but thats what you get for fearless Vets.

Do you not have to have one panzer platoon the same as your HQ - although I haven't seen Eastern Front yet.

you could kampgruppe for 4 platoons, but i'd probably try and get 4 platoons on their own, or maybe try and increase the size of the panzer platoon from 3 to 4 to make them an efficient assault force.

Also some smoke would be handy to stop those 88s and the like ruining your day.

blessed knight

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jimmy wrote:
Do you not have to have one panzer platoon the same as your HQ - although I haven't seen Eastern Front yet.

oops actually its 2 panzer platoons

using the cheapest options 1500pts isn't much of a force

HQ (1 panzer D)
C PLATOON 1. (3 PANZER IV G or H)
C PLATOON 1. (3 PANZER IV G or H)

1420pts

so i'll try an Armoured motorised infantry instead.

HQ (2 SMG Teams with Sd Kfz 251/1C half tracks) 85
(2.8cm sPzB41 with Sd Kfz 251/1C half track) 35

CP1 (Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon - 2 squads) 200

CP2 (Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon - 2 squads) 200

WP1 (Gepanzerte Mortar Platoon - 2 Mortar Sections) 205

WP2 (Gepanzerte Machine gun Platoon - 2 machine gun Sections) 205

DSP1 (Panzer Platoon - 3 x panzer IV H + Schurzen) 570

1500

got smoke bombardment and more platoons

anathema

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Mid-war Ostfront Panzerkompanies are a tricky one, they have the very real possibility of being outgunned our armoured by the Soviets if you take standard Panzer IIIs or IVs as they're quite pricy but not ubertanks like the Panther is Late War.

With any FoW army you have to be able to do a couple of things:

1. Be able to kill or survive the onslaught of a light tank or medium horde. Certain PzIIIs can pump out 3 shots a tank and so can do this, PzIVs have decent AT or firepower.

2. Be able to deal with heavy tanks, eg. 3-5 KVs or Churchills. Tigers and Marders can do this, as can 88s (although they're tricky to use with an army that will usually attack). Pz IV F2/Gs can do it in a pinch. If you can't reliably deal with them directly, artillery or air is useful. My Tankovy has Limited Air because I can't deal with big cats any other way.

3. Can you dig out large nasty infantry platoons sat on an objective? Soviet Strelkovy, Pioneers, American Armoured Rifles all usually have 8+ teams and nasty Tank Assault weapons such as flamthrowers or Bazookas. The best way to shift these guys is usually an assault as shooting dug-in infantry takes too long.

Its unlikely you can survive Defensive Fire and the subsequent assault without thinning them out a bit through shooting though. It helps immensely to have a recce unit to life Gone to Ground enabling you to hit them at 1 better than otherwise.

Pinning weapons and smoke help too. A pinned bazooka is hitting you on a 5+. A pinned, smoked bazooka hits you on a 6 or may not be able to see you through a smoke template. This reduces the effectiveness of defensive fire.

An infantry platoon is also good to help out tanks by clearing the way. They generally have more stands and are cheaper/more expendable, if slower.

4. Can you get to the objective in time? Yes, you have tanks.

5. Can you survive an ambush? Recce helps immensely here too. A good ambush will appear in concealing terrain within 16" and with clear LOS to your side armour. You want to push it back with a spread out recce platoon so that it can't deploy in cover within 16".

Its perfectly possibly to do all of this with panzers, but you can't fight battles of attrition with them. Taking SS reduces your numbers quite a lot and gives you even less to play with so I'd advise to go with a normal panzerkompanie to start with.

You Gepanzerte Panzergren list look OK and well rounded. The things with these guys though is that you're paying a lot of points for the halftracks. Transport vehicles are often a liability (they count against platoon strength when killed but not for it when alive) and even half-tracks can be popped by anything more than small arms. On the plus side they give you great mobility for infantry teams but I certainly wouldn't count on getting off a mounted assault unless you could otherwise make an infantry one. The assault is still pinned down on 5 hits even in the half-tracks, only fully armoured teams ignore pinning.

If you'd like, at some point I could lend you my panzers to fight against my Soviets to try before you buy.

blessed knight

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anathema wrote:
You Gepanzerte Panzergren list look OK and well rounded. The things with these guys though is that you're paying a lot of points for the halftracks. Transport vehicles are often a liability (they count against platoon strength when killed but not for it when alive) and even half-tracks can be popped by anything more than small arms. On the plus side they give you great mobility for infantry teams but I certainly wouldn't count on getting off a mounted assault unless you could otherwise make an infantry one. The assault is still pinned down on 5 hits even in the half-tracks, only fully armoured teams ignore pinning.

If you'd like, at some point I could lend you my panzers to fight against my Soviets to try before you buy.

dropping it down to a Heer list frees up 200pts
so i'd add 1 tracked panzerspah patrol
(3 x Panzer II luchs) 165
use remaining points to upgrade my panzer platoon to StuG G's

I'd love to try a game using Panzers. Is Stockport Gaming centre open on Wednesday nights? Thats the current night i can escape Oldham for gaming.

blessed knight

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Had a few more thoughts on army list that i'll try first. I'm switching to a recon Armoured car Co.

HQ - Panzer II Luchs (recon)

CP - 3 x Panzer II Luchs (recon)
CP - 3 x Panzer II Luchs (recon)
CP - 3 x Panzer II Luchs (recon)

DSP - 2 x Panther D
DSP - panzergrenadier platoon (HQ + 2 squads)
DSP - Gepanzerte Infantry Gun platoon (HQ + 3 7.5cm lelG18 guns)
DSP - priority air support (Bf109E or FW190F)

What sort of things will this list suffer from?

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Last edited by blessed knight (2010-07-12 00:48:02)

anathema

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Are you deliberately working through a list of "hard to play" companies at the moment? Armoured car companies of any stripe are hard to play due to their low armour and small size. By definition they can't stick around and slug it out so find it difficult to dig out defenders or to hold ground against armoured companies.

This may suffer against medium armour as the Panthers can't be everywhere and are the only big hitters while the Luchs can't scratch FA5/6. Also assaulting dug in infantry backed up with concealed AT guns may be tricky. Jimmy has an AC list that changed into an infantry list, he's probably best to comment.

jimmy

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Oi! - finding hard to play armies is my job!

: goes back to building his Polish Home Army fearless conscript army

I started with Armoured cars in the desert, but didn't really get enough to get to grips with them, they are fast, can be sneaky but are ultimatly delicate - you can't hold an objective with them, as one failed test and they run away to regroup.

blessed knight

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anathema wrote:
Are you deliberately working through a list of "hard to play" companies at the moment? Armoured car companies of any stripe are hard to play due to their low armour and small size. By definition they can't stick around and slug it out so find it difficult to dig out defenders or to hold ground against armoured companies.

This may suffer against medium armour as the Panthers can't be everywhere and are the only big hitters while the Luchs can't scratch FA5/6. Also assaulting dug in infantry backed up with concealed AT guns may be tricky. Jimmy has an AC list that changed into an infantry list, he's probably best to comment.

may try to upgrade the aircraft tp Ju87G stukas

Which is the hardest list to try? may see if i like the look of it.

anathema

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Probably the Gepanzerte Panzergrens. Normal Grenadiers can get 9 rifle/MG stands for 30 points less than you'd be getting 7 MG teams. MG teams are awesome on the defence, but as a mechanized company you'll be attacking dug-in infantry companies or defending against tank comapnies, not known for their weakness to small arms.

You pay lots of points for the half-tracks and have to try and get the most from them, which is difficult seeing as most players use their trucks etc. to battle taxi up to the fighting and then send the transports to the rear.

Ade has experience using half-tracks with his Yankees, they're great defending against infantry or attacking men with no AT support but you need to use them well and they risk getting hurt badly against tanks.

blessed knight

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started work on terrain, so i have a board ready for my soon to be started force.

(still missing floors)

anathema

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Very nice! *takes notes* I await the finished board with much anticipation.

jimmy

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more buildings! - my Polish Home guard love them

blessed knight

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jimmy wrote:
more buildings! - my Polish Home guard love them

hopefully my parachute rifle Co will too.

Re: terrain
for info i just use a template for the windows and doors on each floor.

(each floor is 1 metal ruler width high) all the detail is done using ball point pen.

anathema

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Another new army! Which period and which nation is it from?

blessed knight

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anathema wrote:
Another new army! Which period and which nation is it from?

Germans, mid war, eastern front.

forged in battle models have sold me on an infantry based list.

at the moment, the plan is 2 combat platoons,recon, some HMG's and mortars plus some form of anti tank.

anathema

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Ah, Fallschirmjager are a good army. Fearless Vet infantry are pretty tough to shift.

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Mid war Panzerkompanie - Eastern front

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jimmy wrote:

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anathema wrote:

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jimmy wrote:

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