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Curis

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WarbossKurgan wrote:
Missed this earlier...

Curis wrote:
I know about the choice restriction on allies (1 HQ & 1 Troop compulsory - 1 Elite, 1 Troop, 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support optional). But does choosing these count towards the host force's FoC?
Not at all - you still have the full normal minimums and maximums.

Thankeeee.

zelophahad

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skcuzzlebumm wrote:
Richard stands out by a country mile.

I'm sure he does.

Stompzilla

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I see transports are utterly crap. I fail to see the point of a transport that you can't disembark from if it moves faster nthan you can walk.

That being said, I reckon that with a few tactical house rules I could see myself giving 6th ed a go for a break from Epic every now and again.

kong

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I have found transports to still be very good

Ork Trukks are very, very fast now and can sometimes survive a hit that would have otherwise killed them

Landraiders are great when used at range

Stompzilla

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It's the disembark rules that kill it. It's ok for Orks as they can disembark from the front of their vehicle and still get a 12" move. If your access point just happens to be at the back though....

I do quite like the vehicle rules as a whole but just that one little change (To access points) would make it pretty damned spot on. As it is Eldar waveserpents are virtually useless as a transport vehicle.

vodrake

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You could just face the vehicle backwards.

blessed knight

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Stompzilla wrote:
It's the disembark rules that kill it. It's ok for Orks as they can disembark from the front of their vehicle and still get a 12" move. If your access point just happens to be at the back though....

I do quite like the vehicle rules as a whole but just that one little change (To access points) would make it pretty damned spot on. As it is Eldar waveserpents are virtually useless as a transport vehicle.

The transports with rear hatches tend to not be combat troop carriers though.
i think the change to a 6" disembarkation over the old 2" move after a vehicle has moved gives a pretty good boost to troop movement. Add in the doubling of charge distance for assault vehicles and the models get a potential 24" move and charge. a bit better than the 12" drive, 2" deploy, 6" charge.

add in heavy weapons being able to snap fire from moving tanks adds some extra teeth to transports too.

waveserpents aren't good for deploying a combat assault now, but they can deliver some lethal firepower where it's needed.

Stompzilla

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So Wave Serpents are not supposed to be assault carriers? The speed and armour + front forceshield that makes the swordwind possible? Or Chimeras, with their heavy armour to the front? Or valkyries? I'm sorry Lee, I disagree quite strongly there.

I'm not so bothered about their ability to delived CC troopes into CC, it's, their ability to deliver troops into advantagous positions and do some shooting, you know - actually be able to act as an APC and engage in a tactical game of fire and maneuver. It's made worse because my opponent can do it, fairly easily but Eldar and Guard can't really because of the way their transports were modelled (I.e. design asthetics).

They struggle with that though because most Eldar weapons are 12-18". I accept that my Banshees are going to be hanging up their swords because there's no way they'll EVER get a charge off without being pummeled first due to the new transport rules and I don't mind that.

If there's no, or limited scope for tactical fire and maneuver though then I start to lose interest and just think why bother, just keep playing epic.

wilsonian

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Have I missed something here or can you pop the hatch of a chimera - making it open-topped and they pile out at the front of the tank?

I think it's more about using cover than just rolling up with thick armour plates and opening fire - ala-ending of shaun of the dead. think of the 6" move as the transport slowing down as it gets ready to deliver the cargo.

blessed knight

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Stompzilla wrote:
So Wave Serpents are not supposed to be assault carriers? The speed and armour + front forceshield that makes the swordwind possible? Or Chimeras, with their heavy armour to the front? Or valkyries? I'm sorry Lee, I disagree quite strongly there.

I'm not so bothered about their ability to delived CC troopes into CC, it's, their ability to deliver troops into advantagous positions and do some shooting, you know - actually be able to act as an APC and engage in a tactical game of fire and maneuver. It's made worse because my opponent can do it, fairly easily but Eldar and Guard can't really because of the way their transports were modelled (I.e. design asthetics).

They struggle with that though because most Eldar weapons are 12-18". I accept that my Banshees are going to be hanging up their swords because there's no way they'll EVER get a charge off without being pummeled first due to the new transport rules and I don't mind that.

If there's no, or limited scope for tactical fire and maneuver though then I start to lose interest and just think why bother, just keep playing epic.

actually Eldar/guard transports are great for getting troops into shooting position. what I said was, they aren't good for combat troop delivery. pretty much what you've confirmed with your mention of the banshees.

turn 1 drive in full pelt. turn 2 deploy. some vehicles even allow desembarkation after moving flat out
(this rules out the Valkyrie from your list above as its a fast skimmer (30" flat out) with grav chute insertion)

anathema

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Hang on a minute, are we saying that assault troops like Banshees are pretty much useless in 6th ed? Now I may be two editions behind, but I used to be able to assault with them on a regular basis. If there's very little chance of getting lightly armoured CC specialists into assault then that's a pretty poor show.

blessed knight

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anathema wrote:
Hang on a minute, are we saying that assault troops like Banshees are pretty much useless in 6th ed? Now I may be two editions behind, but I used to be able to assault with them on a regular basis. If there's very little chance of getting lightly armoured CC specialists into assault then that's a pretty poor show.

at the moment it's 6" on foot with rerollable 2D6" charge range using cover to get into position

or

Serpent in turn 1. disembark turn 2 and assult turn 3.

assaults are still nasty, they are just a little trickier to pull off now.

even on foot, you are looking at charging turn 2 if you want a direct confrontation, though you'll have to watch out for overwatch...

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Last edited by blessed knight (2012-08-02 19:50:17)

Stompzilla

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Yeah, Banshees are big time boned and Avengers aren't a great deal better. Forget about being able to get Guardians or anything with a flamer in range too. Since WS are modeled with the hatch at the back and are about 6" long you're actually much better spending the transport points on things with jumppacks and jetbikes.

Tourney Eldar wise I'd expect to see lots of GJBs, Warp spiders and Jetbike seer councils.

I would like to run a fairly well balanced, fluffy swordwind esq list (List included at the end of this post) for lots of tactical maneuver fun but the transport rules are highly unfavourable - hence my suggestion in the Houserules thread that we change the rule slightly so that you measure, your 6" infantry move after disembarkation, from the Vehicle hull rather than the access point.

But yeah, Banshees are boned either way. Scorpions on the other hand though.....

HQ

Farseer - Runes of Warding, Fortune, Singing Spear - 103
4 x Warlocks all with Singing Spears, 3 x Destructor, 1 x Embolden - 147

Elites

8 x fire dragons inc Exarch, Dragon's Breath Flamer + crack shot - 145
Wave serpent - Spirit Stone, EML - 130

Troops

10 x Dire Avengers inc Exarch - Power Weapon + Shimmer Shield + Defend - 162
Wave serpent -Spirit Stone, TL Shuriken Cannon + underslung SC - 120

3 x Guardian jetbikes inc Shuriken Cannon + Warlock, Singing spear + Destructor - 134

3 x Guardian jetbikes inc Shuriken Cannon + Warlock, Singing Spear + Destructor - 134

Heavy Support

Fire Prism + Underslung Cannon + Spirit Stones - 135

Fire Prism + Underslung Cannon + Spirit Stones - 135

Falcon - Star Cannon + Spirit Stones - 150

1495 pts.

blessed knight

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BTW...you do realize that according to the Rulebook, the flying base is also an access point don't you?

vodrake

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Is that not just for flyers?

blessed knight

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vodrake wrote:
Is that not just for flyers?

rule says if it has a flying base. the skimmers have flying bases.
(even called that by name in the skimmer section)

Stompzilla

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WHat If I model my waveserpent with a flying base at the front? Or multiple flying bases (Say one small one for each "Wing"). I guess by RAW that be ok.

Well why not just save me the effort of uglifying my models unneccessarily and just mod the rule slightly to allow for models to make their move from the vehicle.

I understand that for tourneys and for general pick up games, you can discuss this but not demand it. For games between pals though, you must surely recognise that it does iron out some of the nerf factor for just some armies.

Banshees however are still totally boned.

Just for Dave this: You can't assault at all if you started your move in a transport, even if the transport didn't move - so they need to spend at least a turn outside of the transport before they can get into CC. Additionally if a vehicle takes just 3 glancing hits (Although you do get a nice 5+ cover save for being a fast skimmer) on your AV 12 vehicle, everyone takes a S4 hit. Then you also have overwatch which the Banshee mask can't stop. For marines and Orks O/W isn't too bad. Marines have the T and the armour and Orks have the T and the numbers but for epensive T3 4+sv models it's pretty bad news. Scorpions could do it I reckon but you'd probably need to dedicate a farseer with fortune to them.

For a much cheaper cost you can just get some more Warlocks on jetbikes for the uber council or warp spiders. So IMO the CC Aspects are really not worth bothering in this ed with the current codex.

Eldar heavy support vehicles have gone down drastically in survivability but have gained the ability to shoot more often. TBH I'm actually quite a fan of this.

Stompzilla

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So much of a fuss over nothing. An enjoyable game that didn't require too much thought. Being able to hit things almost diagonally acrtoss the table was a bit much. Having gotten the first turn my fire prisms decimated Paul's BA Assault squads, despite their being hidden behind buildings, one sneaky little move and a cross board shot from 60" away with a template that can't really miss and zap, smoking boots. I couldn't help but feel bad about it and there wasn't anything that Paul could have done differently either.

Overall a decent enough game but I did feel that 40K itself is somewhat lacking. So much complication for just move, shoot, assault. How many dice to work out charge range? Overwatch, then how to deal with difficult terrain? FFS all I want to do is move this unit there and shoot at that unit.

Hull points I like, overwatch I like and overall it's not a bad version of 40K. Transports are chuffing useless though which strikes me as a bit crap for a futuristic sci-fi game. Defo takes a lot away from the tactical element of maneuvering troops, as well as the visual and "Feel" element of the game, which is 40K's real draw.

Needless to say I'll not be hanging up my 6mm models in the near future but as an excuse to get re-aquanted with an old friend and have a bit of a geeky giggle, it's not that bad at all. If only they hadn't stuffed up the transport rules.

I'll play again definately, although it's IMO a ginger haired step child next to GW's specialist games in terms of depth of thought required and satisfaction of the whole experience.

wilsonian

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I think due to all the changes it's a bit of a shock for anyone moving from 4th to 6th.

Terrain is a big feature now - WYSIWYG is the name of the game. No door on that wall - no moving through... Makes some of my CoD terrain a bit annoying - but also stops the old sniper through the window - ala Full Metal Jacket style. Also another reason to buy more from GW (or cheaper make it yourself).

Flyers are fun but dam annoying - esp when your dice rolls were as bad as mine . The whole turn move aspect is something to take into account.

Combat - christ nearly as bad as 2nd ed. Esp the WYSIWYG for power weapons - very cheeky GW - making people buy more models when they don't want a I1 +2S Axe

Transports - personally I don't mind it for several reasons:

1, I'm normally on the end of a good old eldar raping so a plus for me
2, With the hatch at the rear it kinda makes sense to deploy from that - although thinking about it I'm sure Skimmers have a rule that allow you to deploy from your skimmers base...
3, The speed restrictions may be changed in an FAQ but for now I see it as the transport slowing down getting ready to deploy.

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Last edited by wilsonian (2012-08-24 08:20:08)

Stompzilla

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The transport rules are utterly shit. My troops move faster on foot. What kind of ball-bag useless bloody transport doesn't go faster than cautious patroling speed? FFS a push bike would be better than a super futuristic, antigrav, flying tank.
It's slower than someone running, for christ sake. What complete bollocks.

Utterly, utterly shit.

Curis

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Stompzilla

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Indeed. I need to see what I'm doing that day but I do plan on going. V.busy at the minute though, little time to spare for gaming

Jeridian

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The transport rules are utterly shit. My troops move faster on foot. What kind of ball-bag useless bloody transport doesn't go faster than cautious patroling speed? FFS a push bike would be better than a super futuristic, antigrav, flying tank.
It's slower than someone running, for christ sake. What complete bollocks.

Utterly, utterly shit.

Your troops can move 30" in a turn? Page ref?

Stompzilla

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Don't get clever. It makes it hard for me to argue.

Seriously though the 30" move is not very useful.

Flame On Forum

Re: Whats the thoughts on 6th ed?

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