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Frog

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So so last night i got very lost, and confused by the campaign rules. (as usual for me!)
but i though i had understood the rules (after reading them)

apparently i got lost on the fact that you have to include the location your fighting on when calculating the control score:

rules wrote:
Divide the warband ratings of each warband by the number of locations controlled, including this one (as if all the warbands playing controlled it)

I found this strange as your having to use your before battle warband rating. as your calculating an scenario after the game.

This makes taking a location very hard indeed. as you need these things to take a location of anyone:
1) to have a higher warband rating.
2) a better control score, i.e. to have one less locations than your opponent a the start of the game.- unless you have a super high warband rating.

Examples.
Dave and myself had a battle over Daves location.
Daves before battle WR:168
Mine before battle WR:190
we both have 3 locations before the game

even tho i won, and have a higher warband rating = i cant take the location. this just seemed unfair to me
working:
Dave (188/3) -10 = 52
Tim (190/4) = 47.5

Surely if we are calculating the the after game locations, we should use after game Warband rating? or he counts as one location less, as ive taken it off him.

also looking though the rules, knowing you dont have to win in a game to take the location, means last nights confusion of "apparently dazza has taken the location" is correct.
Andy did win, but even tho dazza ran away, he wins the location.

Added 01.15.2010 12:02:40:
Added 01.15.2010 12:02:24:
i dont want to see like a big grump! i feel bad have a good moan.

but i just keep being stoped by rules all the time, that apparently are to complicated for little me to understand.

just so happens i dont want the location. - would make my game plan bad! and im sure it will blow over in like a day.....

im loving the campain so far! well the games & ppl!

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Last edited by Frog (2010-01-15 14:39:23)

WarbossKurgan

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It's not that complex Tim! (And you can always give up locations to nab others!) Think of it as being based on your control factor not your WBR really. The control factor is based on your WBR but there are other things that effect to (like how thinly you are spreading your control).

It also stops strong warbands from gobbling up weak ones: If you had only 2 locations before the game you would have easily taken it from Dave, but you were attempting to take a larger slice of the town than he was so he had a better chance of holding on to the contested territory.

We tried after-game WBR last time and it was too tricky as you need some time to work out your new rating after a game (desciding how best to spend your cash, etc.).

When a warband runs away but still takes a location, think of it as a diversionary attack!

Frog

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i do understand them now, still dont like them however. but we can worry about that another campain.

WarbossKurgan wrote:
When a warband runs away but still takes a location, think of it as a diversionary attack!

and i still think andy should have that.

WarbossKurgan

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Hold on...

If Andy and Dazza were fighting over an uncontrolled location Andy only needed to win to grab it. Control factor has no effect in that circumstance.

If they were fighting over Dazza's location and Dazza lost he would take a -10 control factory penalty for it, if Dazza won he would have got a +10 bonus.

Frog

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WarbossKurgan wrote:
Hold on...

If Andy and Dazza were fighting over an uncontrolled location Andy only needed to win to grab it. Control factor has no effect in that circumstance.

If they were fighting over Dazza's location and Dazza lost he would take a -10 control factory penalty for it, if Dazza won he would have got a +10 bonus.

o sorry it was the multi game they played after you left,

it was played over marks location,

Mark, Andy, Dazza, Adam & Dave were all playing. Andy won the game.

WarbossKurgan

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Fair enough - in that case it is down to control factor and Dazza should have it. Andy gets the normal Mordheim bonuses for winning anyway!

Frog

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WarbossKurgan wrote:
Fair enough - in that case it is down to control factor and Dazza should have it. Andy gets the normal Mordheim bonuses for winning anyway!

but thats whats silly,

ok, IF.... Mark played really well killed everyone! defended honourably against the odds n won.......... dazza still gets the location

er....

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Last edited by Frog (2010-01-15 15:46:11)

WarbossKurgan

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Them's the breaks!
It's not just about what happens in the game, that's kind of the point of the system.

There are ways to boost your warband rating without increasing you warbands fighting ability (and the reverse is also true). Unfortunately WBR is not a great measure of how good a warband actually is.

On the other hand Mordheim is not set up to be a "Win at all costs" game. There are some scenarios that some warbands cannot possibly win - it's not as bad as Necromunda for this but it happens. Because of this loosing a game does not mean your warband gets worse! I have only won 1 game out of 9 but my warband rating has still gone up and my warband is getting better.

That's just the kind of game Mordheim is!

zelophahad

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I'm sorry you don't like these rules Tim, but I hope you agree they're an improvement on last time? It's now much quicker and easier to work out whether someone has taken control of a location, and winning is now far more significant than it was in the last campaign!

I'm trying to get the right balance between 'realism', simplicity, and campaign-game-play: The classic problem with campaigns is that the winners just keep getting better and better and no one can ever catch them. In our last campaign we went to the other extreme and winning was almost irrelevant! This time, I think we've got a system which rewards winning, but also stops the leader running away with things.

Frog

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i do agree we need a system in place. and to some degree i think it works.

i would just change 2 things:

Attacking location rules
1) you always need to win to capture the location. (just makes sence)
2) you only use your current number of locations when calculating your control score. (and makes things simpler)
> maybe a compromise the defending player gets to roll on the scenario rules, + one free reroll?

the rest is great. > like the fact you now have to roll to see who decides who gets to chose the location, is a great improvement from the last campain.

I would also love to see the mighty empires map used! (for maybe next campaign) cos we were looking at that in the past. > saul would you mind if i took it home and competed it?

ps, i do feel bad about being a grump! sorry guys.

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Last edited by Frog (2010-01-15 17:02:29)

WarbossKurgan

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Not sure that your suggested changes would make for a better campaign Tim. It has to be the control factor including the contested location or it wouldn't make sense to me. I'd also worry that a strong warband could go round nicking locations without much trouble. There is a certain amount of balancing going on with the campaign system to avoid the classic "the strong get stronger" problem Phil mentioned.

Frog wrote:
I would also love to see the mighty empires map used! (for maybe next campaign) cos we were looking at that in the past. > saul would you mind if i took it home and completed it?

While I can't say no, as it's your Mighty Empires set, I was really looking forward to painting it!

Frog

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WarbossKurgan wrote:
While I can't say no, as it's your Mighty Empires set, I was really looking forward to painting it!

that fine, be my guest.

I was thinking of putting lots of small building on it... something special for each location. following the map you created.

but i know you will make it look cool!

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Last edited by Frog (2010-01-15 17:26:44)

zelophahad

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Frog wrote:
i would just change 2 things:

Attacking location rules
1) you always need to win to capture the location. (just makes sence)
2) you only use your current number of locations when calculating your control score. (and makes things simpler)

1) I'll consider this for the next campaign depending on how things go (although I fear it makes things for complicated, and winning is already important).
2) Sorry, but I think it's pretty simple as it is, and this way wouldn't really make sense. The whole point is that if you're spread too thin, you can't take control. (Don't forget you can give up other locations in order to capture the one you've just fought over.)

I think the problem is multiplayer games, which I confess I didn't really think about properly. Although it's usually easy to identify the winner, it's not always clear whether anyone has really 'lost' (e.g. our game at lunchtime today). I think for this campaign we'd best do a case-by-case basis and try and work some rules out.

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