Flame On Forum

Jeridian

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Well, it's been so long I can't find my previous thread.

Here's the current version I'm painting towards for more experienced heads to look at.

1500pts Mid War

Company HQ- 1xCiC Rifle. 1x2iC Rifle. 1xJeep. 35

Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 180
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 180
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 4xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 145

Mortar Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2x3" Mortars. 1xObservor. 75
Anti-Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2x6pdr Portees. 1xJeep. 105

MG Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2xHMG. 85
MG Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2xHMG. 85
Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Churchill III. 2xChurchill III. 370

Field Battery, Royal Artillery- 2xCommand Rifle. 1xStaff Team. 1xObservor. 4x25pdr Guns. 240

1750pts Late War (Normandy)

Company HQ- 1xCiC Rifle. 1x2iC Rifle. 1xJeep. 30

Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 135
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 135
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 4xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 105

Mortar Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 4x3" Mortars. 2xObservor. 115
Anti-Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2x6pdr Guns. 65

MG Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2xHMG. 80
MG Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2xHMG. 80
Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Churchill III. 2xChurchill III. 215
Armoured Platoon- 1xCommand Sherman III. 2xSherman III. 200
Carrier Platoon- 1xCommand Universal Carrier. 2xUniversal Carrier. 70
Anti-Tank (S Platoon- 1xCommand M10 Tank Destroyer. 2xM10 Tank Destroyers. 120

Field Battery, Royal Artillery- 2xCommand Rifle. 1xStaff Team. 1xObservor. 4x25pdr Guns. 240
Commando Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 3xRifle/MG. 2xSMG. 1xPIAT. 220

The only models I need to buy are the M10 Destroyers (and if I choose the shitload of transports).
Getting it all painted is the tricky part.

jimmy

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I'd probably put the 2 HMG platoons together into one, you've got an odd number of platoons, so it's not too bad to drop down to 8 platoons, and 4 gun teams is twice as survivable as the 2 gun team platoons.

Jeridian

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Many of the missions require me to defend 2 objectives. The 2 HMG's are my anti-personel defenders (the 6pdrs and 25pdrs are my anti-tank defenders for 2 Obj, respectively).

Are odd number of platoons detrimental? For reserve purposes?

I admit the 2 gun unit is fragile.

jimmy

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not particulary detrimental, just not that important - for reserves and the like it's useful to have equal numbers of platoons, if for example you can only have 1/2 your platoons on then ytou'll end up with 2 small platoons rather than a bigger solid platoon and another platoon.

I've learnt from playing brits that it's the small platoons that are the pain with british armies

Jeridian

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Aye, so if I took 9 formations, with half in reserve I only have 4 formations on the board- 4 formations that are smaller than my opponent's 4 with his army of 8.

I have to agree on the Brits, other armies had the sense to distribute HMG's to rifle platoons in combat. I suppose the Bombardment ability is a nice perk, it's an auto-pin if the template gets any hits right? So if my mortars and artillery miss I have a back-up.

jimmy

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yeah - reading the forum, the HMG bombardment means that you can't hurt armoured vehicles or things dug in, but infantry in the open are fair game.

another reason to avoid the 2 HMGs - you'll need rerolls to hit with only 2 guns

anathema

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I'd agree with making the HMGs into one platoon. they're gun teams without gun shields and so by far the most vulnerable type of platoon. They need to get dug in somewhere useful and rely on their veteran status and bulletproof cover to avoid being killed until they open up. For LW, the 6lb guns have HE so their 6 shots can be used to cover AT and anti-infantry in a pinch.

Another thing to mention is the 25lbers, you get the most benefit from the British arty rules by using 8 of them. I know that this is a ubiquitous part of most British infantry lists so you may be avoiding it for personal taste, but if you're looking purely at effectiveness then its probably a case of either going big or going for something else.

Don't know much about British lists, especially LW, so have to see how things go.

Jeridian

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With feedback taken on board, how are these:

1500pts Mid War

Company HQ- 1xCiC Rifle. 1x2iC Rifle. 30

Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 180
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 180
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 190

Mortar Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2x3" Mortars. 1xObservor. 75
Anti-Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2x6pdr Portees. 1xJeep. 105

MG Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 4xHMG. 155
Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Sherman III. 2xSherman III. 345

Field Battery, Royal Artillery- 2xCommand Rifle. 1xStaff Team. 1xObservor. 4x25pdr Guns. 240

1750pts Late War (Normandy)

Company HQ- 1xCiC Rifle. 1x2iC Rifle. 1xJeep. 30

Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 135
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 135
Rifle Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xLight Mortar. 135

Mortar Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 4x3" Mortars. 2xObservor. 115
Anti-Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 2x6pdr Guns. 65

MG Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle. 4xHMG. 150
Tank Platoon- 1xCommand Churchill III. 2xChurchill III. 215
Armoured Platoon- 1xCommand Sherman III. 2xSherman III. 200
Carrier Platoon- 1xCommand Universal Carrier. 2xUniversal Carrier. 70

Field Battery, Royal Artillery- 3xCommand Rifle. 1xStaff Team. 2xObservor. 8x25pdr Guns. 270
Commando Platoon- 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 3xRifle/MG. 2xSMG. 1xPIAT. 220

Jeridian

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Ouch, looks like it's back to the drawing board.

Key issues are a severe lack of Anti-Tank, and an overabundance of Anti-Personnel.

The Machine Guns are a liability that I plan to drop, similar sentiments on the Mortars.
The Shermans proved wafer-thin- so back to the Churchills.
The 6pdrs are adequate, but I need more AT threats sat around.

I noticed infantry are so easily discouraged from taking your objectives by Defensive Fire, and can be hurt by everything my Rifle Platoons and others carry anyway.
Tanks on the other hand are constant threats, brushing passed defenders and smashing onto objectives.
My list at present has a little AT with mostly AP, it needs to be reversed.

Will have to look into the army again.

I'm also at a loss at what 25pdrs are supposed to do, they have failed to impress.

I was outplayed, simple as that, but I felt I couldn't have done much differently, and had very little that could stop the onslaught.

The defensive feel of Infantry Companies in that your trying not to lose by your fingernails, rather than fighting to win aggressively (if you understand the gist) is probably gonna irritate me soon, unfortunately.

For all my bitching, the rules are watertight and thoroughly enjoyable- all the complaints and list changes actually make 'realistic' sense. Infantry did have trouble versus tanks, tanks did make the breakthroughs whilst infantry followed up, tank companies did do the aggressive advances whilst infantry companies defended or advanced behind them clearing stragglers.

anathema

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A few points:

25lbers make good AT guns. ROF2 AT9 FP3+ is pretty average AT MW and will do medium armour over in Defensive fire. One of the hard things to do when attacking British infantry with tanks is to figure out how to unlock the infantry platoon/25lber interlocking fire that's usually found on an objective. Add in a couple of AT guns, another infantry platoon or roaming armour and it gets very tricky and time consuming.

I noticed infantry are so easily discouraged from taking your objectives by Defensive Fire, and can be hurt by everything my Rifle Platoons and others carry anyway.

Very true, hence infantry defend most of the time and why I don't like FFA or Encounter. However with pinning fire and smoke infantry can pull off assaults, especially if they're veterans. When infantry do get into assault they can deadlier to other infantry and guns as you often have more attacks.

The defensive feel of Infantry Companies in that your trying not to lose by your fingernails, rather than fighting to win aggressively (if you understand the gist) is probably gonna irritate me soon, unfortunately.

It is the nature of the beast, however there are ways to mitigate it. When I've defended with my Airborne I've often sent a blocking platoon forward aggresively to disrupt attacks, ambushes help with that too. However there's no denying that the defenders lot is often to hold the objective until reserves arrive. On the flip side as an armoured attacker you often find that you're task is to take on formidably interlocked defensive platoons dripping with AT weapons all dug in and being hit on sixes. It can be a nightmare to try and get a win especially when time is against you.

I find that the best games often happen when that pattern is broken by unexpected manouvres or breakthroughs on both sides. I remember one game of Hold the line where the nearest objective was held by Italian 88s, pioneers and other AT guns. My tanks would have broken themselves against that wall so I sent my motorcycle guys and light tanks on a flank rush for the rear objective while my mediums kept the 88s honest. All of a sudden it was a race to see if my guys got to the back objective before his reserves and sparked a flurry of move and counter-move on either side. Great game of cut and thrust. Similarly against Jimmys King Tiggers I had to dash two platoons of infantry across the board to defend my beleagured objective after he concentrated all his armour at one point in my line and nearly broke through. The close games are the best ones, whether attacking or defending IMO.

I'm actually off uni Monday 15th so if you fancy a desert game I have my new and completely unpainted desert panzers to run out.

Spooky

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“Tigger is a good guy, but when he drinks his whole demeanor changes. We all knew that when he would go and hang out with Gopher, (his chief drug supplier) he was prone to wild binges. Because the Hundred Acre Wood is in a dry county, Tigger would regularly bounce over fifteen miles to the next town just to purchase alcohol. He would often steal money from friends just to support his cocaine and amphetamine addictions. He also was prone to stealing prescription painkillers from his neighbor Rabbit and has a history of unlawfully thieving anti-depressants from his unhappy friend Eeyore.”

When asked about his own rumored eating addiction, Mr. Pooh declined to comment.

anathema

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Ah, the seedy underbelly of the Hundred Acre Wood.

Anyway Si, what did Ade bring, what missions did you play and how much terrain did you use.

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Last edited by anathema (2010-02-01 16:08:29)

Jeridian

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25lbers make good AT guns. ROF2 AT9 FP3+ is pretty average AT MW and will do medium armour over in Defensive fire. One of the hard things to do when attacking British infantry with tanks is to figure out how to unlock the infantry platoon/25lber interlocking fire that's usually found on an objective. Add in a couple of AT guns, another infantry platoon or roaming armour and it gets very tricky and time consuming.

Aye, the catch is I tend to want my 25pdrs as far away from the action as possible- so they tend to be deployed on rearward objectives, and to their credit a Rifle Platoon shield within Defensive Fire range means that objective is generally off-limits to most enemy forces.

The 2nd forward objective usually gets me. I only have 2 6pdrs to hold off the enemy, with a Rifle Platoon shield. The only problem is the 6pdrs don't survive the firepower directed their way.

The 25pdr bombarding is pathetic though. It doesn't actually hurt anything. Seems a huge pts sink just to sit their in the hopes the enemy tries to charge it.

I'm actually off uni Monday 15th so if you fancy a desert game I have my new and completely unpainted desert panzers to run out.

Sounds like a plan.

Anyway Si, what did Ade bring, what missions did you play and how much terrain did you use.

That's asking a lot of my memory.
Ade brought Mechanised US troops, 4 Shermans, 2 Mechanised Rifle Platoons, 5 Stuarts, 3 SP Artillery guns, 3 SP Mortars, Recon unit.

First mission was Cauldron, which was a bloodbath. I hung on to the objectives, but I think eventually I dropped below half platoons and my CiC was dead. The Stuarts proved particularly irritating, whilst the forest in the middle of the board and other dense terrain made it very hard to mutually support platoons and draw LOS. The victory conditions for the defender are nigh untenable except by simply destroying the attacking force (i.e. forcing them to withdraw off the board). In short, for the defender it's just a 'Kill Them' mission.

Second mission was Hold the Line, my troops brushed off the objective very easily, but I think I fell below half platoons again, and my CiC failed his test (you ignore the platoons sat waiting in reserves which makes it very easy to drop me below half). This was a non-game TBH. I never got to use half my army (admittedly most of my army spent the first game walking from reserve too) and the mission was secondary to 'Kill Them', especially for the defender (the defenders victory conditions being just as harsh).

I learnt to hide my CiC as far from the front line as possible. That I will always be fighting the 'Kill Them' mission as that is the only realistic way to achieve defenders Victory Conditions such as 'No enemy model in your half' or 'No enemy model within 16" of any objective'. That I will only get to use half of my army- so with, say, 8 activations I need 4 huge ones (to play with) and 4 cheap as chips ones (to sit in reserve).

With that in mind and the earlier supposition that I need to spam AT not AP, I'm scratching my head over the Afrika book.
Do I squeeze in a second AT Platoon with 17/25pdrs for a serious 'fuck you' to tanks?
Heavy machine guns, contrary to what I'd assumed from WW1 and WW2 history, are barely a nuisance, especially since machine gunners appear to jump up and down waving their arms for a 5+ save rather than seek cover like other infantry for a 3+, I don't know what those soldiers where worried about. They're gone.

The Mortars are always out of range and ineffective, but I may keep them as one of those 'Reserve' platoons that is cheap and will never see the board anyway.

The eternal Sherman/Churchill dilemma for me- the Sherman is agile, it gives me aggressive movement, the Churchill can actually take a hit. I can justify the Churchill to myself I guess, as intended as a rifle company support tank, whilst I can shelve my Shermans for a future Tank Company army.

Paradoxically with the 25pdrs, I think their shit, but I plan to bulk up to 8...
Apparently they get useful at that point, and frankly the Brits don't have a whole lot else to boast about equipment wise (which again, seems historically accurate as the US's scrounging ally).
The key thing is they count as 1 Platoon for Reserve purposes, so are great as one of the 'huge' platoons to play with, whilst their counterpart (a 75pts Mortar for example) can sit out the game in Reserve.

I think working out my army based on these 'Game/Reserve' pairs with the knowledge my 'Game' army will need to fight and win alone will serve me better.
I'm tempted by 25pdrs, Rifle Platoon, Churchills, AT Platoon as my Game units, whilst my Reserve units look like Rifle Platoon, Mortars, Carriers?, Something else.

I've also been considering the 1st Army for an extra 450pts to spend (110pts lost for the Churchills).

Jeridian

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How does this look?

Company HQ- CiC Rifle Team, 2iC Rifle Team. 30pts

'Game' Units

Rifle Platoon- 6xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 1xCommand Rifle/MG. 180pts
Churchill III- x3 370pts
Field Battery (Royal Artillery)- 8x 25pdrs plus guys. 415pts
Anti-Tank Platoon- 2x 6pdr Portees. 105pts

'Reserve' Units

Rifle Platoon- 4xRifle/MG. 1xPIAT. 135pts
Anti-Tank Platoon (Royal Artillery)- 2x 6pdr Portees. 105pts
Mortar Platoon- 2x 3" Mortars. 75pts
Machine Gun Platoon- 2x HMG Teams. 85pts

Total 1500pts

I know, I said no HMG, but it was the cheapest formation I have models for- Pioneers, and AA platoons are more useful/cheaper but I want to use what I own.
Rough plan being the Rifle Platoon shields the 6pdrs on the forward objective, with Churchills in Ambush or floating nearby. 25pdrs hopefully can hold their own on a rear objective, and who knows the reserves might even show up to help them.
At least the Mortar Observor Team can act like another 2iC in connecting my Guns to my Rifle teams for Defensive Fire purposes.

Ade

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USER wrote:
Anyway Si, what did Ade bring, what missions did you play and how much terrain did you use.

Si has the list right.

I think the main issue in both games is that the army lacked credible threats, 25pdrs I thought where scary until I found that they only have FP5+ indirect. 2 6pdrs are too easy to kill if I can get recon in or once they start shooting. HMGs are useful but they really need to open up at close range (plus I was quite lucky with how few you hit and then passing 7 out of 8 saves). The army was just too easy to pick apart with no need for me to commit to assaults until I feel like I can win them. Charging Armoured rifle platoons with infantry doesn't work if the half tracks are still operational.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the British Infantry list to know what you can do different.

For myself I really like the Stuarts in my list they have just the right amount of buzzing about and being annoying, packing only slightly less punch than Shermans against hInfantry are a lot faster and a fair amount cheaper. The Shermans and Artillery can engage enemy Armour, according to US doctrine at the time US tanks should not engage enemy tanks they should punch at the infantry and keep going.

Luckily in MW Armour armies are relatively rare, at least they where the new books might have made them more viable and common.

anathema

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Soviet armour seems a lot more viable now as all the medium tanks got a big points cut and Battlefront have finally realised that Conscript artillery is utterly shite. Hopefully my days of coming last at MW events are over .

Trouble with going AT heavy is that you swing away from being able to defend against pure infantry, Soviet Strelkovy is an absolute bitch in MW from what I've heard so I think every army needs a good source of MG fire. I take 4 HMGs in LW, they don't fire much, but the threat to infantry is undeniable. Dug in they're at sixes to hit at short range with a save and a FP roll, which makes them pretty survivable and they're also usually intermingled with 4x6lbers which means tanks can't just roll over them. Hitting with 8 shots out of 24 is desperately unlucky against Trained troops, they should gut a trained platoon (~5 teams dead, platoon pinned) at short range if still at full strength.

Having said that good AT is essential. The Churchills do this, they're hard to kill and putting out up to 9 shots of AT10 is pretty scary to mediums and death to lights. They also give you a credible assaulting unit the few times you'll have to attack. Not sure on the portees, they're very fragile and I guess they're best used as mobile AT from concealed positions eg. behind hill crests etc. They're an easy one to pick off if tied to an objective.

I still reckon that against tanks 25lbers are better plonked on the objective firing over open sights. As long as you can conceal them using terrain somewhere they're hard to hit and you have 8 of the buggers. They can also still bombard. I doubt Ade's tanks would have been to happy to ping away at your defending platoons for a few turns if there'd been 16 AT9 shots coming back, they'd also murder half-tracks. They'd be hit back on 5s at short range, 6s with Stabilisers which is acceptable. What do you reckon Ade?

Pioneers, and AA platoons are more useful/cheaper but I want to use what I own.

Depends, I was under the impression that British pioneers can't assault or counter-attack. Also AA often finds itself being pushed into a makeshift anti-infantry roll as planes aren't hugely prevalent. Having said that I know I take them and AA stops them dead.

Jimmy's your best bet for British though, I'm just theoryhammering it out.

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Last edited by anathema (2010-02-02 10:59:50)

jimmy

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yeah, british pioneers are crap

anathema

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Alternatively, Britsh pioneers have rules to represent their use and doctrine, which was to actually clear/lay fortifications rather than being flamer-junkie tank killers like everyone elses! Just a thought, I use pioneers for my Airlanding chaps. They do have a flamethrower a PIAT and TA3, I hope they're allowed to assault! If not at least they have a load of mines and barbed wire to chuck down.

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Last edited by anathema (2010-02-02 11:34:16)

Ade

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Ditto for Yank Engineers.

anathema

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Hmm, IIRC its a paltoon thing rather than a national special rule isn't it? If so then my Airlanding Royal Engineers are OK to assault. It would make sense for them to be able to do os, it was all hands to the pump when the gliders crashed.

Ade

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My US engineers only have TA3 no flamethrowers (other than D-Day the yanks didn't use them in Europe) they are certainly not the elite tank killers that German ones are.

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