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Well, my showings in this year's tournaments has been...poor.

I've brought out Marines, Templars and Steel Legion so far.

First up the Steel Legion. I liked the Shadowsword Company BTS but it was exceptionally slow. After seeing Richard Lakings impressive score at Open War and talking with him about Guard I'm coming around to his way of thinking that whilst the Shadowsword is stat-wise impressive and scary as a Titan-Killer gun, it is very slow and in the grand scheme of a game doesn't do much.

I'm also relearning the Epic adage that killing the enemy is secondary, getting to and holding objectives is key.

So I've shaved out all the slow stuff to make a Steel Legion list that should be tough and fast (and probably a clone of Laking's, I haven't seen his OW list yet).

Reg HQ- 1 SC, 12 IG, 7 Chimera, 1 Hydra. 550
Mech Inf- 1 C, 12 IG, 4 Fire Support, 9 Chimera, 1 Hydra. 600
Mech Inf- 1 C, 12 IG, 7 Chimera, 1 Hydra. 450
Sentinels- x4 100
Sentinels- x4 100
Flak- 3 Hydras. 150
Vultures- x4 300
Storm Troopers- x8 4 Valkyries. 350
Artillery- 3xManticores. 250
Thunderbolts- x2 150

3000pts

Perhaps the most resilient IG BTS due to sheer numbers. I noticed the wording of the EA Steel Legion Chimera upgrade could allow 17 Chimera's, but the Epic UK version has corrected this.

The catch is acquiring Chimera's, lots of them. On a whim I bought some Dark Realm Miniatures Ramjacks expecting them to be Rhino size, they're huge- but I really like them. With some converting of guns, drivers viewport and baggage I can see me using these as counts-as Chimera's. I'll get some pics up as soon as I paint a test one up.

My Siegemasters, which have yet to grace a tournament, have had a rethink too. With my love of Shadowswords waning, and a desire to improve their woeful AA my potential list looks as follows:

Siege Reg HQ- 1 SC. 9 Siegers. 3 Griffons. 325
Siege Inf Co- 1 C. 9 Siegers. 3 Thudd Guns. 250
Siege Inf Co- 1 C. 9 Siegers. 3 Thudd Guns. 250
Siege Inf Co- 1 C. 9 Siegers. 175
Siege Artillery- 3 Guns. 3 Emplacements. 175
Siege Artillery- 3 Guns. 3 Emplacements. 175
Siege AA Battery- 3 Blitzen AA. 3 Emplacements. 150
Light Tanks- x6 175
Light Tanks- x6 175
Heavy Tanks- x6 300
Heavy Tanks- x6 300
Super-Heavy Tank- 1 Shadowsword. 200
Thunderbolts- x2 150

Fortified Positions x2 200

3000pts

First glaring problem are the Griffons- they kind of force the Reg HQ to deploy normally, and so will be on the Blitz, but it's the cheapest way to make the Reg HQ the BTS (so preventing 2 BTS's). The non-Thudd Gun Inf Co will likely be an Overwatch screen around it.

The other 2 Infantry will garrison objectives with Thudd Guns forward to cover the board, giving me potentially 4 Indirect artillery strikes.

Main sticking point with this list is getting the Fortified Positions built and painted. Will post pics when I do.

My final offering is a Vanaheim list. I'm very unlikely to go the Games Workshop Valkyrie route and so am on the lookout of good alternatives. To that end I bought 2 Cargo Helicopters from Dark Realm Miniatures to see if they'd make a good starting point for conversion. Looking at them I'm on the fence. Besides this is a very long term goal as an army. Having seen Chris Steel use them they follow the Epic maxim of 'mobility wins' far more than any other IG list, look cool as an Apocalypse Now/ Vietnam helicopter army and have an Eldar quality whilst not being lame-ass.

Vanaheim Reg HQ- 1 SC. 9 Van Troopers. 3 Valkyries. 2 Vendettas. 500
Vanaheim Inf Co- 1 C. 9 Van Troopers. 2 Fire Support. 4 Valkyries. 2 Vendettas. 525
Vanaheim Inf Co- 1 C. 9 Van Troopers. 2 Mortar. 4 Valkyries. 2 Vendettas. 500
Storm Troopers- x8 4 Valkyries. 350
Vultures- x4 300
Vultures- x4 300
Sentinels- x4 100
Sentinels- x2 2 Melta Sentinels. 125
Thunderbolts x2 150
Thunderbolts x2 150

3000pts

Still unsure on this list, may fiddle with it more.

mike

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your post seams to be all middle, it lacks a beginning - as in why you arnt happy an what you want to achieve, and an end - a outcome of what you have learnt writing these lists an how you plan to proceed.

but i took a quick look at the IG codex and this is the list i came up with

has two chimera units to go forward, and one bigger foot blob to sit on an objective/blitz. some stormtoopers in birds for scout, bit of AA from hydra an 2 thunderbolts, and a couple of baneblades to do the damage.

REGIMENTAL HQ [550]
Supreme Commander, 12 Infantry, 7 Chimera, Hydra

INFANTRY COMPANY [600]
Commander, 12 Infantry, 8 Chimera, Hydra, Fire Support Platoon (4 Fire Support)

INFANTRY COMPANY [450]
Commander, 12 Infantry, Infantry Platoon (6 Infantry), Fire Support Platoon (4 Fire Support)

STORM TROOPER PLATOON [350]
8 Storm Troopers, Valkyrie Transport

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Sentinels

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Baneblade

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Baneblade

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 Hydra

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

although personally i prefer the air cav list for the added mass manoeuvrability and coolness - i'd run something like this; (maybe swap one unit for storm troopers in valkyries plus 50 pts to spare (2 x 2/2 on the sentinels))

REGIMENTAL HQ [600]
Supreme Commander, 9 Vanaheim Troopers, 3 Valkyrie, 2 Vendetta, Trooper Platoon (2 Troopers, 1 Valkyrie)

AIR CAVALRY COMPANY [400]
Commander, 9 Vanaheim Troopers, 3 Valkyrie, 2 Vendetta

AIR CAVALRY COMPANY [400]
Commander, 9 Vanaheim Troopers, 3 Valkyrie, 2 Vendetta

AIR CAVALRY COMPANY [400]
Commander, 9 Vanaheim Troopers, 3 Valkyrie, 2 Vendetta

AIR CAVALRY COMPANY [400]
Commander, 9 Vanaheim Troopers, 3 Valkyrie, 2 Vendetta

VULTURE SQUADRON [300]
4 Vultures

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Light Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Light Sentinels

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

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Last edited by mike (2011-04-20 22:46:36)

hello_dave

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If yo're looking air air cav Si, I thought the Exodus Wars stuff

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looked better than DRM's

and I've often eyed this as a potential Chimera:

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Good luck with the Guard, funny to see how the recieved wisdom of 2 Shadowswords has been overturned!

miket

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I still think Shadowswords have a place, you've just got to treat them like artillery; set them up with clear lines of fire and potential targets and never expect them to advance to claim objectives.

Tiny-Tim

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miket wrote:
I still think Shadowswords have a place, you've just got to treat them like artillery; set them up with clear lines of fire and potential targets and never expect them to advance to claim objectives.

It's funny how views change over the years.

Jeridian

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your post seams to be all middle, it lacks a beginning - as in why you arnt happy an what you want to achieve, and an end - a outcome of what you have learnt writing these lists an how you plan to proceed.

It's in there in a rambling way.

Beginning- my tournament performance is bombing. My IG can hold their own and punch the enemy, but when turn 3 rolls around I find myself out-activated, out-manoeouvered and ultimately clawing for a draw.

End- by scraping out the slow, static stuff and making everything highly mobile I hope to have lots of mobile stuff left on turn 3 to threaten and capture objectives.

has two chimera units to go forward, and one bigger foot blob to sit on an objective/blitz. some stormtoopers in birds for scout, bit of AA from hydra an 2 thunderbolts, and a couple of baneblades to do the damage.

2 concerns with that list- first no artillery, it's very handy, but admittedly the enemy takes it out priority one. If your aggressive it can be lived without, but the oppurtunity to reach out and touch any part of the tabletop with a blast template is great.

Second, Baneblades? Essentially Shadowswords without the one saving grace of a Titan Killer 90cm shot. The same flaws as the Shadowsword being too slow to threaten objectives. In engagements (which I assume is where you hope they'll do the damage) the opponent will choose when, where and how to engage them having superior speed and Strategy Rating. Things move very fast in Epic, it'd be great to give you a demo game.
Even if you do get the engagement you want your 3 wounds and Inspiring. Most formations will Outnumber you cancelling out the Inspiring whilst all it takes is 1-2 failed saves to cripple you even if you win.

although personally i prefer the air cav list for the added mass manoeuvrability and coolness - i'd run something like this; (maybe swap one unit for storm troopers in valkyries plus 50 pts to spare (2 x 2/2 on the sentinels))

Looks good, though I'd take Storm Trooper as you suggest. You've taken the bullet and accepted your Supreme Commander re-roll as your BTS target, it's often one of the toughest parts of army list writing to try to get an alternate formation to be more expensive without hurting activation count or usefulness of the formations. I'd expect the opponent to try to nail that SC formation ASAP for a double-whammy of no re-roll and a BTS goal.

If yo're looking air air cav Si, I thought the Exodus Wars stuff

Aye, I looked at them- they do look more futuristic than DRM but they don't seem bulky enough to carry troops. When buying these DRM and Exodus models it's also a gamble on the scale of the models- like the huge Ramjacks I bought, I have no idea what size those Exodus copters are- may buy some eventually to compare.
Current plan is the heavily convert the DRM copter but long way off that.

and I've often eyed this as a potential Chimera:

Look sufficiently Chimera like, but I'm sold on the Ramjacks. One of the funny things with 40k is you get sick of all vehicles being tracked (or floating)- wheeled vehicles are such a refreshing change.

I still think Shadowswords have a place, you've just got to treat them like artillery; set them up with clear lines of fire and potential targets and never expect them to advance to claim objectives.

Problem is the things you want to shoot (i.e. Warhounds, etc) very wisely stay out of LOS whilst rapidly closing on your army so you end up picking off random Chimera's or Rhino's, etc.
I'm also coming around to the ruthless maxim that if a formation can't attack the enemy and claim objectives at the same time it's not good enough.

It's funny how views change over the years.

True, but it's equally true that the opposing armies (the metagame) changes over the years. If Shadowswords and other Titan Killers fade out you'll see more and bigger Titans taken until they start coming back.

mike

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Jeridian wrote:
2 concerns with that list- first no artillery,

i know what you mean, but i am just not really sold on 3 tank units (hydras aside) - IMO they are far to fragile (shoot one tank dead to break)

Baneblades?

I get your point on why you dont want shadowswords. but i actually quite like baneblades for the amount of fire power they can put out. two have the potential to maul formations, especially mixed ones, - unlike shadowswords which give up so much firepower for the TK shot. i wouldnt worry to much about their manoeuvrability but use them more defencelessly - almost like pillboxes. or move it forward and let rip, retain and use it to support another formations engagement.

You've taken the bullet and accepted your Supreme Commander re-roll as your BTS target

yeah. i just found you give up too much in the air cav list trying to make one of the other formations the BTS - i did invest in making the SC unit bigger though. though if you fit the storm troopers in i would consider dropping that to give you 150pts to spare and look for another activation.

Things move very fast in Epic, it'd be great to give you a demo game.

i know. i know how to play epic, just havent done in quite a few years. but i can still remember the rules and theory behind it - that never goes away when you a geek

Mephiston

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I hoping my vanaheim army will be ready for Britcon, and it will be using the Exodus Wars Khazari Valkyrie Transports. It's all sitting in blisters right now though!

Stompzilla

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Baneblades - urgh

I'd say that the guard list lacks punch, Si. Although the infantry companies are resilient and scary looking, they don't really have a great deal of punch. Their tanks are really easy to kill too. If you overspecialised with mech infantry then there's no heavy armour to absorb the nastier AT weaponry your opponent will throw at you.

At ITB, one sustaining Falcon fm stripped a guard infantry company of all it's tanks leaving it with lots of blast markers, no speed and mobile cover. After that it was fairly easy to kill/break slow and unarmoured infantry in the open.

Shadowswords are also a nasty proposition for anyone wanting to assault your lines. Landing craft, Thunderhawks, War hounds anything that relies on transports to get them into position (Aspect warriors and Guardians for e.g.), terminators and Warlock titans even are terrified of and influenced by the positioning of Shadowswords.

Personally I'd be more inclined to go with something like:

REGIMENTAL HQ [550]
Supreme Commander, 12 Infantry, 7 Chimera, Hydra

MECHANISED INFANTRY COMPANY [600]
Commander, 12 Infantry, 7 Chimera, Hydra, Fire Support Platoon (4 Fire Support), 2 Chimera

SUPER-HEAVY TANK COMPANY [550]
3 Shadowsword, Hydra

ARTILLERY BATTERY [250]
3 Manticores

STORM TROOPER PLATOON [350]
8 Storm Troopers, Valkyrie Transport

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 Hydra

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Sentinels

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

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Leaving you 200 pts for something else (250 pts if you lose the hydra on the Superheavies). Roughriders are a cheeky quick moving little fm, deathstrikes can be a major threat that has to be dealt with immediately, leaving your artillery to be offensive for longer or a second battery of artillery to give you some much needed punch. Failing that, another flight of Thunderbolts is never a bad call.

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